tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Apr 11 00:49:46 1994
[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next]
KSRP: Hamlet
- From: Will Martin <[email protected]>
- Subject: KSRP: Hamlet
- Date: Mon, 11 Apr 94 12:47:14 EDT
charghwI'vo':
Okay, so now I get to Hamlet and see that both ~mark and Guido
have been at it. The most striking thing about this, of course,
is that they never translate any lines exactly the same way.
I begin by comparing them.
~markvo':
ber: ghoS 'Iv.
Guidovo':
B: SaH 'Iv?
I like ~mark's better. It is less ambiguous, since {SaH
'Iv} could mean either "Who is present?" or "Who cares?"
~markvo':
van: Qo' jIH'e' HIjang.
Guidovo':
F: Qo', HIjang: yIloS/yIQam, 'ej yI'ang'egh.
Hmm. ~mark's is more susinct. In such a setting, a guard is
unlikely to expend a lot of verbage. Also, Guido's is not fully
decided yet, since a guard would not use a "/"... Still, I like
that {yI'ang'egh} a lot. My English version says, "Nay, answer
me. Stand and unfold yourself." Sounds like the English
translators must have butchered this one just to stuff in more
words. Either of these translations works for me, though I
might try something as short as ~mark's with Guido's touch:
Qo'
yI'ang'egh SoH'e'
~markvo':
ber: taHjaj ta'.
Guidovo':
B: nI'jaj ta' yIn!
Both are good literal translations. Did anyone consider
{reH che'taHjaj ta'ma'}? I would just suspect that wishing a
long life for a leader is incomplete. He or she might live a long
life in prison, forced to remain alive and weak... I also think this
version displays the function of this blessing. By referring to OUR
empiror, it explicitly links these men to the same loyalty. As for {reH}
being a tad optimistic, hey, this blessing carries the sense of
a toast. Realism has nothing to do with it.
~markvo':
van: *bernaDo'* SoH'a'.
Guidovo':
F: *BernarDo*?
To strongly prefer one over the other here is definitely
picking nits. ~mark did a perfect job of expressing this
question without punctuation, so I tend to prefer his, though
this is not a criticism of Guido.
~markvo':
ber: ghaH jIH.
Guidovo':
B: jIH/ghaH/HIja'.
I like ~mark's. Guido's is not yet finished. Then again,
{naDev jIH} would have done as well.
~markvo':
van: bIpaSbe'chu'.
Guidovo':
F: [qaSDI'] poH [lugh] bIghoSmeH bIyeplaw'
Here, I think ~mark's translation (ahem, RECONSTRUCTION)
is brilliant. My English version is "You come most carefully
upon your hour." ~mark shows how wonderfully efficient our
language can be.
~markvo':
ber: DaH qaS ramjep.
Hurvo' yIjaH 'ej yIQongchoH.
Guidovo':
B: DaH wa'maH cha'vatlh rep net ghuH. QongDaqlIj yIghoS, *F*.
Guido's is a more literal translation, though here I prefer
~mark's, both because it avoids spelling out the hour even
Okrand couldn't get right on CK (Heh), (and by the way, Guido, you are
referencing noon, not midnight) and it avoids the potentially insulting
suggestion that *vanSISqo'* sleeps on a BED.
~markvo':
van: choSonta'mo' qatlho'.
bIrqu' naDev 'ej jIroplaw'.
Guidovo':
F: choSonmo' qatlho'qu'. bIrqu', 'ej jI'IQ[bej].
Here, I like things that each of you have done. I prefer
{bIrqu' naDev} to the implied generic "it" in {bIrqu'} alone,
and this does look like an appropriate place for {-ta'}, though
it is not fundamentally necessary. I prefer {'IQ} to {rop} in
this context, though I might have chosen {'It}. The English
version I have says, "For this relief much thanks. 'Tis bitter
cold, And I am sick at heart." While I far from consider myself
to be a final editor here, I offer:
choSonta'mo' qatlho'
bIrqu' naDev 'ej jI'It
~markvo':
ber: bI'avtaHvIS tamtaH'a' ghu'.
Guidovo':
B: bI'avtaHvIS tam'a'?
Again, I lean toward an explicit noun instead of an implied
generic "it", so I like ~mark's a tad better.
~markvo':
van: Qong Hoch.
Guidovo':
F: vIHbe' ghew.
While Guido's line is rather, um, idiomatic, it is so cute
I can't stand it. I like it, I like it. I think it would serve
well some of the publication goals that have been stated on
this list before. ~mark's is the more meaningful, straight line
that is completely correct, but Guido's line sparkles.
~markvo':
ber: vaj yItlheD.
jI'avtaHvIS mutlhejbogh *HoreySo'* *marSeluS* joq
Daghomchugh vaj tIra' tugh pepaw.
Guidovo':
B: ram yItIv.
jI'avtaHvIS mutlhejbogh latlh, *H* *M* je
Daghomchugh, <<yImoD>> yIra'.
Overall, I like ~mark's better on this one. The first
sentence is more Klingon in character the second one is a
little more straight-forward without involving what appears to
be an unnecessary {latlh}. I appreciate how both of you
disentangled "rivals of my watch" to mean other guards who
share the same shift at the gates. Since you both pretty much
agree on how to state this, I'd be hard pressed to argue.
~mark's last sentence is more grammatically correct than
Guido's. I tend to prefer placing the verb of
speaking (assuming that {ra'} falls under this category) AFTER
the paraphrased quotation, though I do understand that it is
grammatically correct in front of it as well. It just strikes
me that {tugh pepaw} is the object of {tIra'} (the prefix
refers to the indirect object). Thus, I would have said:
{Daghomchugh vaj tugh pepaw tIra'} or maybe even:
{Daghomchugh vaj tugh pepaw 'e' tIra'} since the connotations
of {ra'} lean heavily upon other aspects of the verb than that
of speaking. Take this with the same grain of salt as the rest
of my comments.
~markvo':
van: chaH vIQoylaw'.
pemev 'ej pengu''egh.
Guidovo':
F: vIQoylaw'. peloS/peQam! SaH 'Iv?
I completely prefer ~mark's on this one. I have to confess
that if a guard ever yelled {SaH 'Iv?} at me, I'd be sorely
tempted to step out of the shadows and snarl a sarcastic
{jISaHbe'} as I integrate the majority of his abdominal
molecular structure into the wall behind him. I would respond
much more positively to the more straight forward {yIngu''egh}.
~markvo':
Hor: jupna'lI' maH.
Guidovo':
H: Hatlhvam juppu'.
Guido's is the more literal translation. ~mark's is the
more logical response to a guard leveling a weapon at your
midsection. The plural suffix would be a nice touch, but in
terms of spitting out the most important concepts in the least
amount of time, it makes sense to get the concept of "FRIEND"
out first, then the concept of "DEFINITELY a friend" out soon
behind it, and "definitely YOUR friend" after that. Plurality
is the least important aspect here, and having it implied in
the same stroke that makes this a complete sentence (unlike the
unworthy English translation), well, that's all the better.
~markvo':
mar: ta' matlhwI' maH je.
Guidovo':
M: ... "Denmark" toy'wI'pu' je (?)
I wonder about this one. My Oxford translation says, "And
liegemen to the Dane." My Oxford English Dictionary (OED)
defines "liege man" as "a vassal sworn to the service and
support of his superior lord, who in return was obliged to
afford him protection, etc." My Concise Oxford Dictionary (COD)
similarly, though differently says, "sworn vassal, faithful
follower". COD describes a vassal as "holder of land by feudal
tenure on conditions of homage and allegiance". The rhetorical
sense of the word has more to do with servitude, while the
historical sense of the word has more to do with land ownership
through protection of the biggest badass on local turf.
Now, we have to think about the perspective of *marSel'uS*
here. What is he trying to do? He is one of two men standing in
front of an armed guard. Does he want to assure the guard of
his loyalty, or does he want to assure the guard that if that
guard messes with him, he'll have hell to pay for it? I think
I'd go in a totally different direction here:
nuQan jawlI'
~markvo':
van: jIQongchoHpa' Savan.
Guidovo':
F: ram yItIv.
The reason we have such divergent reconstructions here is
that this is the kind of social exchange Klingons don't
generally have. "Give you good night," is just not the kind of
thing Klingons are known for saying, especially in this kind of
setting. Face it. *vernanDo'* probably just sneered at them and
let them pass. The English translators probably added this line
in order to be humanly polite.
On second thought, this would be a terrific place for
{ghIchwIj DabochmoHchugh, ghIchlIj qanob}. The human
translators would have stared at it for a while, scratched
their heads and then written, "Give you good night." I think we
should put the nose line here and annotate it to explain that
the original line was misunderstood by the human translators
and so they merely filled in with a line that they considered
appropriate for a human to say in such a setting.
~markvo':
mar: pIvan je.
DuSonta' 'Iv.
Guidovo':
M: batlh yIjaH, mang yoH.
DuSonpu' 'Iv?
Of these, I like Guido's better. While it is more literally
the same as the English, it adds the right touches. I don't see
much significance here between {-pu'} and {-ta'} in that either
is appropriate. I think the verb would also have been fine
without either. The perfective aspect here is so obvious that
it hardly needs mention.
I also like the idea of completely changing this line such
that the speaker could have called the guard one of those names
we don't have a literal translation for in English, say TKD on
page 58 or 178. The English translators would have once again
filled in for their ignorance with "Honest soldier".
~markvo':
van: muSonta' *bernaDo'*'e'.
wa'leS Saleghqa'.
Guidovo':
F: yaHwIj ghaj *B*.
ram yItIv.
Either of these will do. Guido's better follows the English
text and does so in such a way that does not beg for recasting.
~mark's recasts it in a way that is quite acceptable. Still,
this would be a fine place for a continuation of curse warfare,
which the English translators would have glossed over and
replaced with all this polite hogwash. "Waltons do Qo'noS".
"Good night, Worf-boy"...
~markvo':
mar: *bernaDo'* pIvan.
Guidovo':
M: SuH, *B*!
How long can this go on? More and more I am convinced that
the ORIGINAL absolutely HAD to have filled this section with
curse warfare. There's no way a bunch of guards are going to
spend this much time all kissy-faced during a change in watch.
Jeeeeeez.
~markvo':
ber: toH tlhej'a' *HoreySo'*.
Guidovo':
B: toH, SaH'a' *H*?
I guess either one will do. I would have said
{nuqDaq *HoreySo'*}. Given that these two translators have yet
to use the same words on a single line, I can forgive myself
for coming up with Yet Another Translation.
~markvo':
Hor: loQ.
Guidovo':
H: ghopDaj.
Cute, Guido, cute. "A piece of him." My original suspicion
was that Horatio would have made reference to a DIFFERENT piece
of him, but so far as I know, we don't know the word for that
body part yet. In response to my earlier suggested {nuqDaq
*HoraySo'*}, I would answer {naDev jIHlaw'}.
~markvo':
ber: *HoreySo'* *marSeluS* quv je Savan.
Guidovo':
B: batlh yIghoS/yIchol, *H*; batlh yIghoS/yIchol, *M* QaQ (?)
{taj'a' hIghupmoH}. Gag me with a sword. They'll be using {-oy}
next. I can feel it coming...
~markvo':
mar: toH DaHjaj ram narghqa'pu''a' Dochvam.
Guidovo':
M: toH, DaHjaj ram narghqa''a' Dochvam?
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! WE HAVE OUR FIRST NEARLY IDENTICAL
LINES OF TRANSLATION! I have a slight hedge toward ~mark's use
of the perfective, since they are asking if the apparition has
done its deed tonight already, not whether or not it is still
expected to appear. The perfective makes this a little more
clear.
~markvo':
ber: wej vIlegh.
Guidovo':
B: pagh vIleghpu'.
Here, I lean toward Guido's more literal translation. It
suits well. ~mark's has a different connotation to it that I do
not believe exhibits the skepticism that *bernaDo'* is supposed
to be showing here.
~markvo':
mar: jatlh *HoreySo'* ngeb neH.
'ej Dochvam'e' cha'logh wIleghpu'bogh maH HarQo'.
vaj ma'avtaHvIS nutlhej.
narghqa'chugh Dochvam'e' qa''e' vaj mInmaj 'oljaj
'ej 'oHvaD jatlhjaj.
Guidovo':
M: <<Sunajba' neH>> ja' *H*.
'ej cha'logh Doch'e' wIleghpu'bogh HarQo'.
ghu'vammo' <<DaHjaj ram bI'avmeH ghotlhej>> vItlhobpu'.
narghqa'chugh nuvHey, nuQochbe', wIja'DI'.
Eeeww! ~mark's first line could be easily read as "Only the
fake *HoreySo'* speaks." In fact, that is about the only way I
can read it. Every time I try to read it some other way, I
fail. No. That's what it says. Meanwhile, the English is
"Horatio says 'tis but our fantasy,". Guido's translation is
far closer and less strange. I would probably not use any
quotation notation and change {Sunajba'} to {wInajba'} to mean
"*HoreySo'* reports that we merely dream it."
I also favor Guido's version of the second line, since the
adverbial {cha'logh} feels more appropriately placed at the
beginning of this word-string instead of dividing the verb from
the object.
For the next part, both of you have a different
interpretation of the events than do I. These two men were
"rivals to my watch". I interpreted this to mean that they
shared the same shift as he, though at their different gates. I
thought that they were inviting him to join them AFTER THEIR
SHIFT to stand around and watch for the ghost. I didn't think
anybody was on guard duty. Meanwhile, one translation means,
"Then he accompanies us while we are guarding," and the other
means, "Because of this situation, I asked him, 'Tonight,
accompany us for the purpose that you guard.'" The Oxford
version is "Therefore I have entreated him along With us to
watch the minutes of this night...".
I cannot find ~mark's {qa''e'} in TKD, or the two issues of
HolQeD that have offered Okrand-sanctioned additional
vocabulary. The Klingon parser I have been testing for D'Armond
and friends says that {qa'} = "spirit (n)", but it does not
site the source of this word. Would anyone like to enlighten
me? In general, I think that if we use words that are not in
TKD, we should footnote the source.
Well, we must admit that this is a difficult passage. Both
of you took quite different paths to solve the difficulties. I
like Guido's a bit better, though I feel compelled to make my
own attempt:
cha'logh narghwI' wIleghpu', 'ach nuHarQo' *HoreySo'*
wInajba' neH 'e' Qub ghaH
vaj nutlhej ghaH 'e' vIngIlbejta'
qaStaHvIS DaHjaj ram Hoch mabej
narghqa'chugh Doch'e' chaq 'oH qIH *HoreySo'
'ej manaj neH 'e' Qub 'e' mevchu' jay'
And with this effort expended, I must stop for now. I will
return for more of this at another time. For those patient
enough to read nearly 400 lines of this, I thank you for your
attention.
Qapla'
charghwI'