tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Jul 30 11:51:37 2012
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] A request for assistance
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" color="#1f497d" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D">Some of you may remember this request from a couple of years ago. Would someone please contact Kate OFF LIST and help
her choose a suitable {pIqaD} font for her tattoo. Her e-mail address is <a href="mailto:[email protected]";>
[email protected]</a>. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" color="#1f497d" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" color="#1f497d" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D">--<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Consolas"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D">Voragh<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" color="#1f497d" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" color="#1f497d" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D">Kate,
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" color="#1f497d" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" color="#1f497d" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D">I’m afraid I don't really know much about the available fonts for “pIqaD” (as the “native” Klingon writing system is
called), but I’ll be happy to forward your post to the Klingon Language Institute’s mailing list and ask for someone to contact you. Let me know if you haven’t heard anything in a few days.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" color="#1f497d" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" color="#1f497d" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Kate Oscarson [mailto:[email protected]] <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Friday, July 27, 2012 11:28 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Hello Mr. Boozer,<br>
<br>
I certainly took your advice, and did not rush into anything. It is now two years later, and I am ready to move forward with this project. After reflecting, I think I would like to use the word "roS," regardless of the other context for this word. The flower
itself is important, since it is literally my name and a family name. I think that the family connection is important, even if my family name does mean "lick" or "toe."
<br>
<br>
May I make another request of you, in that case? I would like to make sure I translate this correctly into the appropriate characters. Would you be able to assist me in this request?<br>
<br>
Thank you,<br>
<br>
Kate<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Steven Boozer <<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I'd be happy to assist, but as I tell everyone who wants
a Klingon tattoo: Don't rush it before you're completely happy with it. Once you've been inked it's too late to change a bad translation! (Don't laugh; it's happened.)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">As for vocabulary, there're a couple of options for "thorn".
You could say {</span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">DuQwI'Hom} "(small) spike, spikelet":</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> A "<i><span style="font-style:italic">spike"</span></i> is a {DuQwI'} and the small
spikes on the <i><span style="font-style:italic">d'k tahg</span></i> [pommel]</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> are usually called {DuQwI'Hommey} ("little spikes"). [KGT p.61]</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">or *{por jej} "sharp leaf". In fact Okrand described the {</span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">naHjej}
as:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> a thistle (a flower with dangerously sharp leaves) is a {naHjej}</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> (literally, "<i><span style="font-style:italic">sharp fruit"</span></i>)" [KGT p.88]</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<b><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-weight:bold"> </span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Because "rose" is an Earth flower, you wouldn't expect
there to be a Klingon word for it. As we often say on the KLI mailing list in such cases: "What's Klingon for 'pizza'?" (As it happens, there's also no known word for "flower" – someone once came up with *{tI 'IH}, literally "beautiful vegetation".) Generally
we simply transcribe such words using Okrand's Klingon orthography - e.g. *{roS} – but I wouldn't do that in this case since {roS} is phonetically identical to 1) the verb "lick"; 2) the verb "use the third toe"; and the {roS} found in {roSHa'moH} "paralyze
(meaning unclear).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">On the other hand we do know the names of a few specific
Klingon flowers if you'd like to choose one:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">{chal}<i><span style="font-style:italic">
</span></i> - a type of flower (SAREK [pro-novel]):</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> "When you are my wife, your beauty will blossom like *chal* flowers in spring."
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> (Karg in the pro-novel SAREK by Michael Jan Friedman, p.58)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">*{<i><span style="font-style:italic">tlhoghnI'}
</span></i> - <i><span style="font-style:italic">throgni</span></i></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-style:italic"> </span></font></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Night-blooming
<i><span style="font-style:italic">Throgni</span></i> is a fragrant Klingon flower. "Worf found the smell of a Quazulu VIII virus similar to the Throgni." ("Star Trek Encyclopedia", p.219; cf. TNG "Angel One"]) Worf didn't say that Throgni had romantic overtones
(like the Earth rose), but I thought he had a wistful expression on his face during the scene. Note that it seems to contain the morphemes {tlhogh} "marriage" and {nI'} "be long/lengthy in duration".
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">{tlheng'IQ} -
<i><span style="font-style:italic">thranx</span></i></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">It's a Klingon plant that flowers once every eight years (described in the pro-novel
KAHLESS also by Michael Jan Friedman, p.60). This is a brand-new official spelling Okrand coined for the opera {'u'}, which debuted in the Netherlands just last month.
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:12.0pt">
<i><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-style:italic"> </span></font></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">As for the phrase, we have a few options. Using {naHjej} for example we could translate it as a sentence:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> DuQwI'Hom ghajbe' naHjej</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> a thistle doesn't have a thorn (or, thorns)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> DuQwI'Hom Hutlh naHjej</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> a thistle lacks a thorn (or, thorns)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">or as a phrase:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> DuQwI'Hom ghajbe'bogh naHjej'e'</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> thistle that does not have a thorn (or, thorns)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> thistle not having a thorn (or, thorns)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> DuQwI'Hom Hutlhbogh naHjej'e'</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> thistle that lacks a thorn (or, thorns)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> thistle lacking a thorn (or, thorns)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.2in;line-height:12.0pt">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">I said "a thorn (or, thorns)" because the plural suffix {-mey} is never required in Klingon as you probably know.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Well that's enough to start with.
</span></font><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I'm not entirely sure what
</span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">"without thorn the rose" is supposed to imply, so I may have misunderstood Milton here. Not to mention what the phrase means to
</span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">you. I'm sure you have questions so don't hesitate to ask. We can tweek the translation until you're completely happy with it.
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Qapla'!</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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Voragh <br>
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Kate Oscarson [mailto:<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a>]
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<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, October 27, 2010 1:53 PM</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">I am writing to you today in hopes of assistance in a Klingon translation project. I retrieved your email address
off of the Klingon Language Institute Discussion Board, and am hopeful that you might be able to help me, or at least point me in the right direction. I have already had emails bounce back as "undeliverable" for all administrator addresses at the KLI website.
I am hoping to translate "Without Thorn the Rose" (Milton, Paradise Lost). I have done the research and checked many resources, however I am unable to find the words "rose" and "thorn" defined either at the KLI or at other Klingon translation websites. Would
you be able to assist?<br>
<br>
To add a personal note, in the hopes that it may help my cause, I am in the process of having a large rose-vine tattooed across my back as a way of paying respect to my family's honor (I am the 13th rose in a family of strong, proud, honorable women.) I would
like to add this phrase to my tattoo. I think that the Klingon Gods would have approved, had they not all been slain by their creations.<br>
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Thank you for your time,<br>
<br>
Katherine Rose Oscarson <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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-- <br>
~Kate Oscarson<br>
<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a><br>
<a href="http://www.wilocavore.blogspot.com"; target="_blank">www.wilocavore.blogspot.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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