tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sat Nov 05 14:22:50 2011
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner Story: nuq bop bom 'ay''a' wej
tuQaHpu' 'e' Hoch Satlho'qu'. vIqaw 'e' vInID. vIghojqu'ta' vIneH 'ej vIyajqu'ta' vIneH. <div><br></div><div><span style="border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(136, 136, 136)">--<br>
Sincerely,<br><br>Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)</span><br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2011/11/5 lojmIt tI'wI' nuv <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>I'm with ghunchu'wI' and Sustel on this one.</div><div><br></div><div>The most awkward part of dealing with the Klingon language is that Marc Okrand, THE authority on the language... has not really spoken it all that well for most of the history of the language. There are a lot of mistakes. Most of the time, his examples are of good Klingon, but the number of errors comes close to the number of insightful, new bits about the language that he gives us. Many of the mistakes become canon and we have to treat them like they aren't mistakes.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Ever wonder why {neH} doesn't take {'e'} like all the other verbs used in Sentence-As-Object constructions? Ever wonder why the second verb in Sentence-As-Object constructions never takes a Type 7 suffix? These rules are based on errors Okrand noticed that he had made after they became canon. The rules make his errors in those cases the correct way to speak Klingon. But Okrand never made it a rule that you shouldn't use {lu-} in {lutu'lu'}. He just goofed and didn't catch it. It happens. Deal with it.</div>
<div><br></div><div>In general, we have to decide what to politely ignore and what to take seriously. On this particular issue (Do we use {lutu'lu'} when the direct object is plural?), we've been through this a bunch of times. The consensus tends to be, that the right way to say it is {lutu'lu'}, but forgetting the opening {lu-} is a common, tolerable mistake.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Think of it as "ain't" vs. "isn't". While I know it isn't right, I ain't giving you a hard time if you say it wrong. That doesn't make your error the correct way to say it. {lutu'lu'} simply is the right way to say it. It's not old-fashioned and on its way out. It's not a hypercorrection. It is the gold standard. If you wish to speak proper Klingon, don't forget the {lu-}.</div>
<div><br></div><div>If you screw up and omit the {lu-}, nobody is going to give you a hard time about it. There is no {lu-} for he X, she X, it X, they X, he X him, he X her, he X it, he X them, she X him, she X her, she X it, she X them, it X him, it X her, it X it, it X them, but there is a {lu-} for they X him, they X her, and they X it. It's the easiest part of the prefix chart to get wrong. We all do it at some point in our learning the language. Even Okrand.</div>
<div><br></div><div>But being a common error doesn't make it right. It especially does not make it preferable.</div><br><font color="#888888"><div>
<span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium"><div>
lojmIt tI'wI' nuv</div><div><a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a></div><div><br></div></span><br>
</div>
<br></font><div><div><div></div><div class="h5"><div>On Nov 5, 2011, at 11:12 AM, ghunchu'wI' 'utlh wrote:</div><br></div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div></div><div class="h5"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>
On Nov 5, 2011, at 4:40 AM, Wiechu <<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><span>However in light of this, how do you explain example from TKD 4.2.5 { naDev puqpu' tu'lu' } ?</span></div>
</div></blockquote><br><div><span style="color:rgb(0, 35, 163)">*I* explain it as an error.</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0, 35, 163)"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0, 35, 163)">There are other obvious errors in TKD, including {lujpu' jIH} on page 29 and {yIHaghqu'} "study him/her well" on page 48.</span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(0, 35, 163)"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0, 35, 163)">-- ghunchu'wI' </span></div></div></div></div><div class="im">_______________________________________________<br>
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