tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Dec 22 08:51:45 2010
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RE: monastery
Andre:
>>>I'm not a native speaker of English, but isn't it possible to say,
>>>like, "The whole monastery was shocked and frightened about the
>>>new monk's deed." (or something). I understand the Klingon word as
>>>referring to the building ("The monastery was found in 1673.") and
>>>to the people in it, as my example sentence above.
Voragh:
>>You're quite right, but there's not special about "monastery".
>>You can do it with any building or place when referring to the
>>people who live/work there:
>>
>> "The whole prison was shocked by the new guard's attitude."
>> "The whole library was shocked by the new clerk's incompetence."
>> "The whole hospital was shocked by the new doctor's carelessness."
>> "The whole university was shocked by the new professor's opinions."
>> "The whole city was shocked by the new gang's boldness.
>> Etc.
ter'eS:
> This is called "synecdoche" in classical rhetoric, "where one part of
> an object is used to represent the whole". For example, "Washington is
> embroiled in chaos", where "Washington" stands for "the legislators in
> the legislature located in Washington". But this is not generally
> understood to extend the meaning of the "part" in the other direction.
> You couldn't see a group of legislators in the airport and say "There
> goes a washington".
Aha, synecdoche! I couldn't remember the rhetorical term.
> The community that occupies a monastery is composed of monks. The
> community of monks occupies a monastery. The community of monks is not
> itself a monastery, in any accepted definition.
>
> Frankly, I think Okrand doesn't always think his answers through as
> thoroughly as we analyze them. When his answers are ambiguous, I think
> it's best to take the simplest interpretation, which in this case is to
> restrict {ghIn} to the most basic meaning of "monastery": a building
> for the use of a religious community (allowing for the possibility that
> "religious" doesn't mean to the Klingons exactly what it means to us).
My rule of thumb for interpreting Maltz's utterances is: Whenever there's ambiguity I like to check the term's use in Okrand's other writings or in the Star Trek episodes/movies. Although Okrand isn't an expert on Trek trivia like some of us, he does use "monastery" (and "Boreth" and "cleric") only once in KLINGON FOR THE GALACTIC TRAVELER in the caption to the illustration on p.77:
Because of the feelings stirred by a {van bom}, the clerics
of the monastery on Boreth created the clone of Kahless.
I also found this exchange on the old startrek.klingon newsgroup:
*************************************************************************
From: Marc Okrand <...>
Newsgroups: startrek.klingon
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998
Subject: Re: "cleric" -- Dr. Okrand?
Qov wrote...
>> Is there a word for cleric? How about High Cleric?
>
>A cleric is a person ordained for religious duties. In the absence of a
>specific word for cleric (I don't know >of any published word) I might use:
> {lalDan ghojmoHwI'} - teacher of religion
> {lalDan tay DevwI'} - leader of a religion ceremony
> {lalDan Sov choqwI'} - preserver of religious knowledge
> {qeylIS SuvwI'} - warrior of Kahless
>...depending on what I meant.
I was going to respond to Khaywolf's original question by asking a
question of my own in order to pin down exactly how Khaywolf wants to use
the term translated as "cleric." Can the term be applied as broadly as
the English word "cleric," or does it refer to something more specific or
specialized?
But before I got to it, Qov managed (as usual!) to come up with some
really good suggestions.
There may be a word for "cleric" (in some sense) we don't know yet. I'll
wait to hear back from anyone who wants to provide clarification about
what, exactly, a Klingon cleric is/does, and then I'll check to see if
there's a good word for that.
From: Alan Anderson <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998
Subject: Re: "cleric" -- Dr. Okrand?
There were certainly Klingon clerics on Boreth, at the monastery that was
established by the followers of Kahless. Whatever else they did, they
created a clone of Kahless. :-) It seems that their duty was to await
Kahless' return, to remember and tell stories about him in the meantime,
and to guide or advise others in spiritual matters. I have usually
thought of the particular clerics portrayed in the TNG episode "Rightful
Heir" as religious leaders/guides, which is an idea I think the Klingon
phrase {lalDan DevwI'} captures well.
*************************************************************************
Note again Okrand's hesitancy WRT the nature of Klingon religion and its "clerics".
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons