tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Nov 05 13:31:38 2006

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RE: A tangled knot of subordinate clauses

Agnieszka Solska ([email protected]) [KLI Member] [Hol po'wI']

>  Great.  Now you're going to make me work ;)

maj. :)

>So far I've been treating Klingon as a write-only language.

batlh yIghItlhtaH.

>>Alternatively we can try and figure out what the English refers noun 
>>"thing" to and provide that referent in Klingon. Now, the "things" we say 
>>are words, sentences, which in turn express ideas. This would give us
>>
>>mu'mey vIjatlhpu'bogh Dayaj
>>You understand the words I said.
>>
>>qechmey'e' 'oSbogh mu'meywIj Dayaj
>>You understand the ideas represented by my words.
>
>  I think in this case it's not that the actual words are in question but 
>rather the underlying ideas, so I'd prefer the latter except that it's 
>awfully wordy.

jIQochbe'.

>OTOH I've lost some wordiness through being unable to directly express the 
>"you think" in "what you think I said", so this may be a wash.

>  >:Is there a word for "statement" or "message"
>
>>There is {QIn} meaning "message".
>
>  Perfect, but where is it from?  I don't find it in TKD or in the 
>supplemental list at kli.org.  I have KGT on order; is it in there?

Yes. KGT p. 65: "...the word QIn means not only "spearhead"
but also "message."

>  Do you suppose one can {jatlh} a {QIn}, or is some other verb better?

I don't know. I believe MO once said that the appropriate objects for 
{jatlh} are the noun {Hol} and other nouns describing speech, i.e. {SoQ}, 
{mu'}, {lut}, etc. In some of its senses the English word "message" fits 
this category. As for {QIn}, I'm not sure. However, if you did use it with 
{jatlh} I would not challenge you to a fight.  {{;-)

>  I now think my question in the previous post was misconceived.  If {Hech} 
>appears with the standard sentence-as-object construction, then in theory 
>there shouldn't be any reason it can't have a nominal object instead.  That 
>is, a sentence such as {mu'qaD vIHechpu'} should be possible if {qatIchpu' 
>'e' vIHech} is.

While we lack canonical examples I have seen and heard people use {Hech} 
with nominal objects.

>  If not, I'm in a pretty pickle because "what I meant" must become 
>something like "what I intended to say" or "what I intended to 
>communicate", which brings me right back to the unsolved problem of 
>translating phrases like "what you think I said", but this time with no 
>handy suffix hack ({-law'} in {vIjatlhlaw'pu'bogh}) to fall back on.

I agree, this is tough.

>:Sov luneH tlhobbogh yabDu'
>:(if brain = body part, or perhaps {yabpu'}
>:if mind = person by synecdoche)
>
>In Klingon plural suffixes are optional. The prefix lu- already indicates a 
>plural subject, so why not just say:
>
>Sov luneH tlhobbogh yab.

>  In practice, this is fine, but there's that whole "inquiring mind" thing. 
>  If you _had_ to pluralize {yab} in this sense (say, in a sentence like 
>{tlhobbogh yab?u'vaD jIghItlh}), how would you do it?

For what it's worth, I'd say {yabDu'}.

>  This is reminiscent of an exercise in the Postal Course referring to the 
>"hands" of a clock.  Does this require the body-part plural suffix?  Or, 
>since the usage is metaphorical, is the general non-sentient plural used 
>instead?

I had no idea that a {tlhaq} has hands. ;)

>  Neither TKD nor kli.org gives "request, plead" for {tlhob}

It does in the Addendum, p. 185.

>or has {ghel} at all.  KGT again?

I don't know the origin of {ghel}. It is mentioned in HQ 7/4, p. 7 back in 
1998 so the word has been around for quite a while.

>Can the _complete_ list be found anywhere?

Some klingonists have compiled complete lists for their own use. Quvar and 
maHvatlh sell (or used to sell) dictionaries containing almost all the 
words.

>  qatlho' 'ej qavan

qavan, mIq'ey.

'ISqu'

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