tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Jul 29 15:58:42 2004
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Re: TKD phrase: {-meH} clause
- From: "QeS lagh" <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: TKD phrase: {-meH} clause
- Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:58:04 +1000
- Bcc:
ghItlhpu' Paul:
>There was an idea put forth (sorry sap I am, I deleted the earlier emails)
>about that if the purpose clause is modifying a noun, it takes no prefix
>or /-lu'/, but I'm not sure I buy that.
What I said was not that it would take no prefix, just that it wouldn't have
to take one. If the purpose clause modifies a noun, then the head noun is
not necessarily the subject of the purpose clause. Look at {ghojmeH taj}; in
that, the knife's not doing any learning. Of course, there's nothing saying
that you can't say {ghojlu'meH taj} anyway.
>There is limited canon in TKD (one of the three examples I found was the
>one in question):
Unfortunately, the canon doesn't show too many examples of {-meH} clauses
modifying nouns in actual sentences. We're given things like {vutmeH 'un},
{ghojmeH taj}, {pe'meH taj}, but few in-situ usages of them.
>ja'chuqmeH rojHom neH jaghla' -- No prefix on /ja'chuq/, but then, the
>subject of the phrase is likely /jaghla'/, or a third person.
The translation in TKD is "The enemy commander wishes a truce (in order) to
confer". This example is ambiguous also; it could parse as either of the
following:
<ja'chuqmeH> rojHom neH jaghla'
<ja'chuqmeH rojHom> neH jaghla'
>jagh luHoHmeH (jagh) lunejtaH -- Has a prefix!
The translation given in TKD was "They are searching for the enemy in order
to kill him/her". If {luHoHmeH} was a noun modifier, the translation would
have been something like "They are searching for an enemy for them to kill".
I'd say that {luHoHmeH}, rather than modifying the noun {jagh}, is a full
subordinate clause of itself.
Unfortunately, these examples of canon don't support a conclusion either
way.
>tlhutlhlu'meH HIq ngeb qaq law' bIQ qaq puS
>"For one to drink, fake ale is preferable to water."
This makes sense; after all, {Heghlu'meH QaQ jajvam} was the KGT translation
of "Today is a good day to die", and not {HeghmeH QaQ jajvam}.
QeS lagh
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