tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sat Jul 24 19:47:44 2004

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Re: Coke Shirt

David Trimboli ([email protected]) [KLI Member] [Hol po'wI']

From: "QeS lagh" <[email protected]>

> I don't think the distinction makes a difference. As lay'SIv has pointed
> out, {nuqDaq} actually means "at what?" or "to what?" In this vein,
{nuqvo'}
> "from what?" is a suitable translation of "from where?": {nuqvo'
bIlengpu'}
> "where have you journeyed from?"

I tend to agree with this logic, although I suspect that {nuqDaq} has become
a word in its own right, independent of {nuq} + {-Daq}.  I think
*{nuqDaqvo'} would be perfectly understandable to a Klingon.

> But as SuStel has also shown, you'd just say {nuqDaq} if you're not
talking
> about anything actually moving anywhere:

There is precedent in Klingon for a non-motion-related {-vo'}:

    pa'vo' pagh leghlu'
    The room has no view.
    (Literally, "One sees nothing from the room.")

This may be Okrand's English thinking, but even then the sentence was
translated more colloquially.  Still, one may argue that seeing something is
an action that goes away from the room, if you imagine one's vision as a
particle of sight that moves toward the thing seen.

{-vo'} may be useful to indicate vantage points:

    qach yorvo' pu' bach HoHwI'.
    The killer shoots a phaser from the top of a building.

Compare this with a locative suffix in the sentence:

    qach yorDaq pu' bach HoHwI'.
    The killer shoots a phaser on the top of a building.
    The killer shoots a phaser at the top of a building.

In the first sentence, it is clear that the killer's target is not on the
building with him.  In the second, it's not clear where his victim is, or
even whether he's shooting at the building itself.

> I think the use of {-vo'} in this case is an English thing to do; you're
> actually acquiring the shirt AT a certain location (a shop), rather than
> acquiring it FROM a certain location (except insofar as you're taking the
> shirt away after having purchased it).

Merriam-Webster Online gives three meanings for "from":

     1 -- used as a function word to indicate a starting point of a physical
     movement or a starting point in measuring or reckoning or in a
statement of
     limits <came here from the city> <a week from today> <cost from $5 to
$10>

     2 -- used as a function word to indicate physical separation or an act
or
     condition of removal, abstention, exclusion, release, subtraction, or
     differentiation <protection from the sun> <relief from anxiety>

     3 -- used as a function word to indicate the source, cause, agent, or
basis
     <we conclude from this> <a call from my lawyer> <inherited a love of
music
     from his father> <worked hard from necessity>

Definition 1 is how {-vo'} is defined (and I guess that {pa'vo' pagh
leghlu'} falls under this definition).  Definitions 2 and 3 do not appear in
any use of {-vo'}, and should be avoided unless new evidence is found to
support them, making the word *{nuqDaqvo'} irrelevant in this case.

In acquiring a shirt "from" a seller, you are using definition 3: the seller
is the source.

SuStel
Stardate 4564.3

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