tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Dec 11 14:31:59 2003

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Re: tagh'a jIlIH'egh

Philip Newton ([email protected]) [KLI Member] 

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:25:13 -0500, "David Trimboli"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> From: "Scott Willis" <[email protected]>
> 
> > 2. «mu'mey yap vISovlaw'» vIQub.
> > I don't think {Qub} can be used like this, in the sense of "to
> > think, to believe".  (If I'm wrong, someone will correct me, I'm
> > sure.)
> > For this sense, I've seen { 'e' vIHar} "I believe it" used most
> > often, as you did in your message. Repetition is much more
> > acceptable in {tlhIngan Hol} than in English, so you needn't fear
> > sounding like a broken record.
> 
> Philip's sentence doesn't seem to be trying to say "I believe."  It
> sounds to me like he's quoting the thoughts in his head.

bIlugh. mu'mey vIQubbogh vIDel 'e' vInID.

> We have information on how speech quotations work.  You have to use
> a "verb of saying," as I call them: /jatlh/ or /ja'/.  The sentence
> containing this verb is placed next to the quotation.  For instance,
> 
>     jIjatlh naDev yIghoS.
>     naDev yIghoS jIjatlh.
>     "I said, "Come here."

So {jatlh} has the "no object" prefix when it's used with a quotation?

(The problem with example sentences in the third person singular is that
you can't tell apart he-it and he-none since they both have the null
prefix.)

With {ja'} it makes sense, I suppose, since the object is typically the
person you communicate with, rather than the words spoken.

> We have no information that says we can quote with a "verb of
> thinking."

Well, there's "Verbs of speech are "say" verbs, like {jatlh} and {ja'}."
and "In Klingon, you {jatlh} and you {ja'}. That's about it.", which
both imply that you probably can't use {Qub} the way I did.

On the other hand, there's also "The way I see I see the verbs of
speech, there may be more than just {ja'} and {jatlh}", though it's
qualified immediately with "but there is only a small number of words".

> And that's where Philip's sentence really comes into question.
> «mu'mey yap vISovlaw'» vIQub.  There's no reason to think that,
> except for /neH/, a sentence can be the object of a verb without
> using /'e'/ as a stand-in.  The problem is, if you recast this as
> /mu'mey yap vISovlaw' 'e' vIQub/ "I think that I probably know many
> words," you not only lose the idea of a quotation, but you're being
> redundant (you could just leave it as /mu'mey yap vISovlaw'/ "I
> think I know sufficient words").
> 
> I'd say this sentence calls for some kind of recasting, at Philip's
> discretion.

To something like {«mu'mey yap vISovlaw'» jIjatlh; jIQub}, perhaps?

> 'ach Dojqu'bej Philip Hol ghojmeH laH.  not ghaH vIleghpu', 'ach
> tlhIngan Hol jatlhchu'taH!  majQa'!

That was partly my intention... to show up on the scene not a complete
newbie. Though I ended up procrastinating joining this list for so long
that I wound up with quite a bit of Klingon under my belt when I did
start posting.

Philip

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