tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Jan 08 06:18:09 1998

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Re: DIS chu' Quch

ja'pu' charghwI':
>...Can a year BE happy? Is it sentient?

ja' SuStel:
>I addressed this question, either elsewhere in the message you replied to or
>another one in the same thread.  We don't know if a year can "be happy" in
>Klingon.  I said this, and then went on to look at the grammar.
>
>And we just don't know.  KGT p. 105 has a pretty clear implication that
>{pa'vamDaq jIbIr} means that the speaker is uncomfortable with the
>temperature being as low as it is.  But if you touch the speaker, you'll
>find that he is at his normal body temperature, and not suffering from
>hypothermia!  The paragraph is aimed at showing that this is NOT an
>idiomatic expression in Klingon.  So what exactly is the subject of {bIr}?
>The person or the environment?

I think you need to read that passage in KGT again:

  The Klingon sentence {pa'vamDaq jIbIr} means "I am cold in this room"--
  nothing more, nothing less.

This is explicitly contrasted with the English sentence's implication
of discomfort.  The {jIbIr} doesn't say anthing about the environment,
only about the speaker.  The subject of {bIr} is the thing which is 
cold, which can be just about anything physical.  The environment can 
certainly have a low temperature, but then one would say {bIr pa'vam}.
It would still be taken literally; if the speaker wanted the window to
be closed, he'd just say {Qorwagh yISoQmoH}.

>Similarly, we don't KNOW that {Quch} can't be stretched in a like manner.
>I'm with you in thinking that it probably doesn't, but I'm not saying it
>CANNOT, and so I voiced my opinion on the subject and then let it rest, to
>get on with the grammar.

I don't see any "stretch" involved in the use of {bIr} you referred 
to; such a stretch of {Quch} has no precedent.  Indeed, there's very 
nearly a counter-precedent on TKW p196: {SeymoH QeH}.  If you *must*
manage to use nearly the same words as "Happy New Year", I'd suggest
{QuchmoHjaj DIS chu'}.

-- ghunchu'wI'

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