tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Jan 04 21:22:50 1998
[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next]
Re: KLBC: waqmey lutuQ verenganpu'
- From: Qov <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: KLBC: waqmey lutuQ verenganpu'
- Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 21:22:11 -0800
At 11:24 98-01-04 -0800, 'elren wrote:
}>At 19:52 98-01-02 -0800, 'elren wrote:
}>}I was bored today so I thought I would try and translate a Black
}Sabbath
}>}song. It was tougher than I thought in places, but I gave it a go
}>}anyway...
}>
}>yb 667ttytttjn 67
}>
}>(Qov bangs her forehead on the keyboard a few times)
}>
}(QovvaD SeHlaw chu' nob 'elren)
maj. vIpoQlaw'.
}I would just like to make a few points about this.
}
}A. You have no idea what level I am at with the Klingon Language, and
}therefore should not be saying whether or not I am ready to translate
}other people's english.
I've seen your work before and I can count on my digits without taking off
my shoes the number of people I know who I think are competent to begin
translating colloquial poetry -- which is what a song is.
}B. I did not ask for your advice on how I should translate work, I just
}wanted you to look at the grammer and vocab that I used in the
}translation, and tell whether or not it is the correct use of it.
That is what I did, simply pointed out grammatical and vocabulary errors in
the text you produced, refering to the original to find out what you were
trying to do. I am forced to translate the lyrics into ideas, to check the
translation, because it is ideas, not words that Klingon expresses.
}C. I am not the greatest person at learning languages, I have been
}learning Klingon for about 5 years now, and the way I was taught to
}learn languages at school was by translateing sentances I was given, in
}order to build vocabulary and practice grammer. Since vocab is my worst
}spot, I simply use this sort of exercise to learn new words that I
}wouldn't normally use when wrighting my own thoughts, therefore
}expanding my vocab.
The sentences that you were given to translate in in your language classes
were formulated to drill the skills you had been taught. This is quite
different from translating a literary piece. I will be happy to give you
some exercises to translate that should help you rather than frustrate both
of us.
Here is a suggestion, a compromise for the next time you want to translate a
song. Explain in your on words, in Klingon, what happens in the song.
Paraphrase it and write that in Klingon.
}D. A great deal of the time, the Klingon Language does not have the
}words I want to use in order to put across my thoughts, and I get left
}with very bland sentances which have little to do with my orginal ideas.
If they are specialized terms or isolated concepts that Klingon simply does
not have, drop in the English. I remember a conversation I had in Klingon
at the last qep'a' in which I just dropped the English *be jealous* several
times, because Klingon doesn't express that. {*Dairy Queen* wIghoStaHvIS
*car* Dun vIlegh} is a perfectly fine thing to say.
If you are consistently finding you cannot express your feeling and
activities with what we have, then working on that is a good idea. I'm going
to quote here a posting by charghwI' (Will Martin). Maybe he can explain
better than I have.
******* begin quoted text
For those beginners who are drawn to translate the writings of
others rather than writing their own stuff because, "I can't
think of anything to write," realize that in order to speak
Klingon well, you must thoroughly understand the thought behind
the sentence you are attempting to write. Klingon is not encoded
English. It is a language.
All languages contain ambiguities, and each langauge has its
strenths and weaknesses. Between languages, the strong and weak
areas differ. A grammatical construction in one language may
cover the territory of several different grammatical
constructions in a different language.
So, you must begin with the thought, pick up the appropriate
Klingon tool to express each piece of the thought and then
smoothe out the grammar of the whole sentence until it is a
polished work deserving of expression.
If you translate someone else's writing, you must begin by
translating the symbols of the other person's speech into
thought before you can begin to express that thought in Klingon.
If a phrase is ambiguous, you need to decide arbitrarily and
without consulting the writer which branch of meaning to take
and how best to express that in Klingon. You are more tempted to
use an equivalent grammatical construction as the original
writer, even if that does not fit the Klingon meaning well.
When the writing is your own, you know the meaning of all of
your ambiguous phrases. You know the thought and will feel more
free to change grammatical constructions to suit your meaning.
It is not simply easier. The exercise is more meaningful. It
builds your skills better than translating someone else's work.
***** end quoted text
}>I don't think you proofread this: there is a mistyped or misspelled
}>word in almost every line. I will point out some of the problems I
}>find. I recommend that you go through your work and ask what is the
}>subject and object of each verb, and what is the main clause of each
}>sentence, making sure you have used the correct word order,
}>vocabulary, prefixes, and suffixes for the grammar.
}>
}>}Here goes:
}>}
}>}juH jaHtaH, eram Qav paS
}>
}>Canon shows that {jaH} does not take the destination as its object.
}
}<snip the klingon>
}
}The spelling mistakes, I apologise for, I was typing it into my computer
}from a handwritten version and didn't have my TKD with me to check the
}spelling, and my handwriting is bad ;)
}
}One last point, you say "Canon shows", and that is not very helpful
}unless you quote the canon, and then give an example of how to say the
}line correctly;
}
}..as far as I can see, and I don't have every single peice of canon
}stored in my head, I go home would be juH jIjaH...
I'm sorry, I don't have every single piece of canon in my head either. It
ould take me a lot longer to answer KLBCs if I looked up and cited canon for
ever correction I make.
The reason I did not show how to translate the things correctly was twofold.
One is is that would mean *I* would have I would have to do the translation,
and as I don't really understand the song, in English, I don't feel
qualified to do that. The other is that there were so many different points
to cover that I couldn't explain them all in detail.
}unless it says something in TKD, how am I supposed to know otherwise,
}and get it right next time?
TKD pp. 27 and 73 have examples. I'll let you look them up instead of just
telling you how to do it.
I admit that I was very blunt in telling you what I think of KLBC literary
translations, but in my experience if I simply say "it is not recommended" I
am ignored.
Now here are the promised translation sentences. They are not easy. If the
vocabulary isn't sufficient, flip through TKD and find some unfamiliar words
to use yourself. Just make sure you use grammar that is familiar to the
grammarians. :)
Qov insults my abilities and my ideas.
I am unwilling to follow that woman's instructions exactly.
I alone understand myself. Others do not.
Everyone has ideas, and we should respect the ideas of others.
I am not a fool who translates every word without understanding anything.
I understand that the same English word can represent many Klingon words.
Looking at the screen, I see that my computer displays a new message.
Jumping at shadows, your beloved daughter accidentally pierced her finger.
The sharp stick she was carrying should be dulled before I give it to my son.
Attacked at dawn, the Ferengi troops were contained by the first squadron of
Yiridian warriors.
Waiting at the door was a beautiful woman.
The woman sent me into extreme panic because she was holding a severed head
and I recognized the face.
If I want to translate, I am bloody well going to translate.
I enjoy hearing songs and sometimes the ideas of the songs make me
reconsider my very life.
If I want to use Klingon to communicate those ideas then I undoubtedly will.
Qov [email protected]
Beginners' Grammarian