tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Feb 17 13:55:32 1998
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Re: taH mu' {'ej}
- From: "David Trimboli" <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: taH mu' {'ej}
- Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:24:29 -0500
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
>maQoch DIlo'raH jIH je
>mu' {'ej} tam mu' {vaj} qelbogh qechvam taghmoH 'Iv; vISovbe'
Qob tlhIngan Hol mu'tlheghvetlh DaghItlhpu'bogh! bIyoH. maj.
>ghItlh tlhIngan Hol mu'ghom 'ay' 5.3:
mu'mey qonbogh MarcOkrand vIteqta'.
The question here is not a matter of showing that your usage doesn't violate
TKD. What DloraH is concerned about is that the conjunction have been shown
to avoid representing sequences.
For example, you have a sentence below:
>jItam: yaS legh puq 'ej qIp
>DIpmey nop mu'tlhegh cha'DIch
>From almost all of the examples we've seen in Klingon, {yaS legh puq 'ej
qIp} seems to indicate that the child both sees the officer and hits the
officer, IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER. Another example of this is from TKD:
{jISoptaH 'ej QongtaH} "I am eating and he is sleeping." These actions have
no particular order in Klingon; without context we must assume that they
occur simultaneously.
The classic example of what we're talking about is on TKW p. 5: {bogh
tlhInganpu', SuvwI'pu' moj, Hegh} "Klingons are born, live as warriors, then
die." Note that there is NO {'ej} anywhere in there. It is simply a
sequence of statements. On the same page we see {SuvmeH 'ej charghmeH bogh
tlhInganpu'} "Klingons are born to fight and to conquer." Here, {'ej}
clearly does not indicate a sequence of events; fighting and conquering are
done simultaneously.
The best way to say your sentence is {yaS legh puq, qIp} "The child sees the
officer and hits him." Note that my translation includes "and" because it
is stylistically correct in English to use it.
>mu' {'ej} wIloDI' poH nIb wIqelnIS'a'
>jIjang: ghobe'
It is not a question of grammar, it is a matter of style. If I walked
around never using the English pronoun "you," I'd be grammatically correct,
but my conversation would be freakishly wrong. Though less significant
here, your use of {'ej} seems to be stylistically wrong.
>ghorgh mu' {'ej} wIlo'nIS; ghorgh mu' {vaj} wIlo'nIS
>jIghoH: Adverb neH 'oH mu' {vaj}'e' 'ej cha' mu'tlheghmey rarlaHbe'
mu'tlheghmey lurarlu'meH {vaj} lo'lu' ghorgh Duja' DloraH?
>tlhIngan tIgh: SuvwI' DevmeH paqDaq qonlu':
>bogh tlhInganpu', SuvwI'pu' moj, Hegh (Hutlh rarbogh mu'mey; poHmey pIm
qel)
That should be {mu'tlheghmey lurarlu'bogh Hutlh}.
>SuvmeH 'ej charghmeH bogh tlhInganpu' (poH ngu'be' mu' {'ej} qoj poH rap
ngu')
>tIqIpqu' 'ej nom tIqIp (poH rap ngu' mu' {'ej})
>Hem tlhIngan Segh 'ej maHemtaH 'e' wIHech (poH veb ngu' mu' {'ej})
chaq. Given the aspect on the second sentence, {maHemtaH} could just as
easily be "simultaneous" with {Hem}. I don't think simultaneity is much of
an issue here.
>'etlh QorghHa'lu'chugh ragh 'etlh nIvqu' 'ej jejHa'choH (poH veb ngu')
>Qu' buSHa'chugh SuvwI', batlhHa' vangchugh, qoj matlhHa'chugh, pagh ghaH
>SuvwI''e' (poH rap ngu'law' mu'tlheghmey rarbogh mu' {qoj})
This also doesn't really have anything to do with time.
>nuHlIj DawIvpu', vaj yISuv (poH nIb ngu'laH mu' {vaj}, 'ach meq 'oS)
This has nothing at all to do with a sequence of events.
>yIvoq, 'ach lojmItmey yISam
>yIvoq, 'ach yI'ol (poH rap ngu'ba' mu' {'ach})
>bIje'be'chugh vaj bIHegh (poH buSbe' mu' {vaj}, meq buS)
>
>qIb lengwI'vaD tlhIngan Hol paqDaq qonlu':
*sigh* Why do people pull a Krankor Trick every time they translate this
title? {qIb lengwI' tlhIngan Hol} "The Galactic Traveler's Klingon
Language."
>SuD 'ej wov
>SuD 'ach wov
>Doq 'ej beqpuj rur (poH rap ngu'law' mu' {'ej} mu' {'ach} je)
>jop 'ej way'; wIjoppu' 'ej wIway'pu' (poH rap ngu' mu' {'ej}. vang cha'
>nuvpu'.)
You're not necessarily doing both at the same time, but time simply isn't
relevant in this sentence.
I'll point out an example which supports your usage:
teplIj yIwoH 'ej pa'lIjDaq yIjaH!
Pick up your luggage and go to your room! (CK)
This sentence is also one of those which shows commands being joined by a
conjunction.
>DaH jIQIj:
>meq mIw joq buSlaw' mu' {vaj}; poH rap poH veb joq buSlaw' mu' {'ej}; poH
>buSbe'taHvIS mu'tlheghmey rarbej mu' {'ej}, mu' {'ach}, mu' {qoj}, mu'
{pagh}
>je.
>vangbogh nuvpu' rap buSba' *conjunctions.
I think you're simply mimicking the English usage of conjunctions. It works
differently in Klingon.
SuStel
Stardate 98131.7