tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Dec 17 09:38:37 1998
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Re: KLBC: nuQbogh jaj
HovqIj:
>
> >ghaytan wa' jaj bIjor 'ej bIQID'eghchu' qoj latlhpu' DaQIDchu'.
> >rut QeHlIj DatlhabmoH 'e' qaq law' QeHlIj DavI' 'e' qaq puS.
> >[...]
> >You probably dislike that I used a sentence with <'e'> as the subject of
> >the <law' / puS> construction, right? I wouldn't have dared to do this,
> >but I'm _quite_ sure we have canon for this (one of the skybox cards, I
> >think). If I am wrong here, I am going to accept it.
ghunchu'wI':
>
> > Someone needs to hit you with a painstick! Unless you can come up with
> > this purported canon, you're *way* off base here. {'e'} is always used
> > as the object of a sentence, and by your own explanation you're trying
> > to use it as a subject. That's even assuming that the noun phrases in
> > a {law'/puS} construction even count as subjects.
> > If *I* am wrong here, and there *is* canon precedent, *I* am of course
> > going to accept it. :-)
HovqIj:
>
> I definitely understand why you don't like it. But I really have this
strange
> feeling I've seen it before. I'm probably just wrong. Voragh?
I can find NO examples of {'e'} as the subject of a sentence or clause, nor
are
there any examples of {'e'} appearing anywhere in a {law'/puS} construction.
If somebody's done it, it wasn't Okrand. If you can find canon, please
post it
here and I'll update my notes. The closest thing I could find is from SkyBox
S26, which HovqIj may be misremembering:
DuraS tuq tlhIngan yejquv patlh luDub 'e' reH lunIDtaH DuraS
be'nI'pu' lurSa' be'etor je.
The sisters of the House of Duras, Lursa and B'Etor, are
constantly seeking a higher standing for the House of Duras
within the Klingon High Council.
Perhaps the fact that {'e'} appears before {reH} confused you, as it looks as
if it is in the subject slot for the first clause, whereas it is actually the
object of {lunIDtaH}.
(As I've stated before, I think {'e'} is oddly located because it is primarily
a linking pronoun whose main function is to separate the two clauses of a
complex sentence which are both fully-formed sentences in their own right.
Okrand writes:
Klingon has two special pronouns, {'e'} and {net}, which refer to the
previous sentence as a whole. They are used primarily, though not
exclusively, with verbs of thinking or observation (such as know, see).
They are always treated as the object of the verb, and the verb always
takes a prefix indicating a third-person singular object. ... In complex
sentences of this type, the second verb never takes an aspect suffix.
(section 4.2.7) (TKD p. 65f)
Note that he didn't address placement of these pronouns when the second clause
begins with an adverbial. It's possible he didn't like the alternative:
*DuraS tuq tlhIngan yejquv patlh luDub reH 'e' lunIDtaH DuraS
be'nI'pu' lurSa' be'etor je.
since {reH} would have become the element separating the two clauses. {reH}
"play" is a verb as well, which may also confuse the readers. Of course, in
S26 Okrand also violated his rule about never using an aspect suffix on the
second verb. He may well rationalize this in subsequent writings by saying
that this misuse of aspect suffixes is a common error among Klingon speakers
but should probably be avoided in formal writing or that his original
observation was incorrect, based on limited information at the time. In any
event, this example is strange for several reasons.)
_________________________________________________________________________
Voragh "Grammatici certant et adhuc sub judice
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons lis est." Horace (Ars Poetica)