tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Dec 11 07:53:30 1998

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RE: RE: Klingon Bird of Prey (KBP) poster: THE TEXT!

I must admit... I'm new to this language.  I subscribed to this from
Tipworld.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	William H. Martin [SMTP:[email protected]]
> Sent:	Friday, December 11, 1998 10:43 AM
> To:	Multiple recipients of list
> Subject:	Re: RE: Klingon Bird of Prey (KBP) poster: THE TEXT!
> 
> I'm surprised that you don't seem to know about the Krankor 
> Rule. That's just my name for it, but years ago, our illustrious 
> captain realized that if a relative clause has both a subject 
> AND an object, you can't tell which of these two are the head 
> noun.
> 
> Since {'e'} is supposed to function basically as a means of 
> saying, "Hey! Look at THIS noun. THIS is the IMPORTANT noun!" 
> that it could be used in such a relative clause to point out 
> which of the two nouns is the head noun. I'll get more specific 
> below.
> 
> On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:56:30 -0800 (PST) Steven Boozer 
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > >> choH lISbogh Hap'e': cha'pujqut
> > >> Reaction Moderating Element - Crystalline Dilithium
> > 
> > SuSvaj:
> > : Hmmm.  "Hap'e'", is the 'e' there for emphasis, or is "Hap'e'"
> intended as
> > : a new word for "element"?
> 
> No. Without {-'e'} here, either {choH} or {Hap} could have been 
> the head noun. It could have either meant "matter which adjusts 
> change" or "change which is adjusted by matter". Okrand wanted 
> to make sure that we know he is talking about the matter and not 
> the change.
>  
> > Herbert Artist:
> > : I don't understand?
> > 
> > Normally, {-'e'} is used to mark the "topic" of the sentence, which is
> usually
> > (though not always) the subject noun.  It is also required in sentences
> of the
> > "A is B" type, or in Klingon {B 'oH A'e'}. 
> 
> These are what we are told about {'e'} in TKD. Krankor's usage 
> came after that and Okrand did approve it and has used it in 
> other settings, though not every time it might have been 
> considered appropriate.
> 
> > There's a sentence of this type on
> > the poster (at least, it's a complete sentence in the Klingon):
> > 
> >   tlhIngan juHqo'Daq tlhIng yoSDaq 'oH toQDuj chenmoHlu'meH Daq
> wa'DIch'e'
> >   1st Construction Site: The Kling District, Klingon Home World
> 
> We all agree on this one.
>  
> > It is unusual to see {-'e'} in a simple noun phrase like this,
> particularly
> > since Okrand didn't use it with the other {-bogh} phrase on the poster,
> which
> > appears in this very same check-off list:
> > 
> >   muDDaq 'eDSeHcha lulaQlu'bogh: jav
> >   Atmosperic Take-Off/Landing Thrusters - 6
> > 
> > Note, however, that here {'eDSeHcha} is not the subject of the verb plus
> > {-bogh} but rather its object, so the two examples are not 100%
> equivalent.
> 
> The main difference is that in this case, the relative clause 
> has only one explicit noun. The relative clause is {'eDSeHcha 
> lulaQlu'bogh}. Obviously, the head noun is {'eDSeHcha}. There is 
> no need for {-'e'} here.
>  
> > I wonder whether {Hap'e'} might be a publisher's typo for *{Hap'a'}? 
> 
> I think you are way off base here. It's just a windmill, Quixote.
> 
> > {Hap}
> > means "matter (substance)" and appears in the phrase {Sor Hap} "wood" -
> > used in
> > {Sor Hap 'In}, a "type of percussion instrument made of wood" (KGT
> p.75).  Its
> > antonym appears to be {rugh} "antimatter (substance)", which also
> appears in
> > KBP:
> > 
> >   nIn: rugh bIQSIp
> >   Fuel - Anti Hydrogen
> > 
> > BTW, Okrand used {-'a'} to create four other new nouns:
> 
> Yes, but not here. You are looking too hard for something that 
> is not there.
>  
> >   chob'a' main corridor (the long neck connecting the head of
> >               the BoP with its body)
> > 
> >   cheb'a' an untranslated unit of weight, apparently 9 times an
> >               ordinary {cheb} (ca. 2.25 kg) according to charghwI'
> > 
> >   chuq'a' long range
> > 
> >   SoSbor'a' main core (computer)
> > 
> > So ?{Hap'a'} "element" ("main/primordial matter") becomes plausible.  
> 
> No. He is just indicating that it is head noun to a relative 
> clause where the other noun {choH} could have been 
> misinterpreted as head noun. The poster is right. You are 
> misguided.
>  
> > OTOH, is {cha'pujqut} "dilithium crystal" really considered an *element*
> in
> > Trekdom?  Okrand may be using {Hap} simply to mean "material, substance"
> here,
> > in which case the {-'e'} may well be for emphasis.
>  
> Well, not really emphasis so much as disambiguation.
>  
> >
> _________________________________________________________________________
> > Voragh                            "Grammatici certant et adhuc sub
> judice
> > Ca'Non Master of the Klingons      lis est."         Horace (Ars
> Poetica)
> 
> charghwI' 'utlh

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