tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Aug 18 08:11:39 1998
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Re: Verbs of Saying
- From: Robyn Stewart <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: Verbs of Saying
- Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 08:09:51 -0700 (PDT)
---qe'San - Jon Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> -------Voragh wrote:
>
> >Ahem... allow me:
> >
> >"Similarly, with verbs of saying (say, tell, ask, etc.), {'e'} and
> >{net} are not used. The two phrases simply follow one another, in
> >either order: {qaja'pu' HIqaghQo'} or {HIqaghQo' qaja'pu'} 'I told
> you >not to interrupt me'. This is literally, 'I told you, "Don't
> interrupt >me!"' or '"Don't interrupt me!" I told you.' ... An aspect
> marker >(here, {-pu'} perfective) may always be attached to the verb
> of saying, >regardless of whether it is the first or second verb."
> (TKD p.67)
> >
> >And from Okrand's extended post on {jatlh} on the Expert Forum BBS
> >(6/97):
> >
> >"The object of {jatlh} 'speak' is that which is spoken. Thus, it's OK
> >to say 'speak a language', for example {tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh} 'you
> >speak Klingon'. But it's also OK to say 'speak an address, speak a
> >lecture', for example {SoQ Dajatlh} 'you speak an address' or, more
> >colloquially, 'you deliver an address' or 'you make a speech'. To say
> >simply {jatlh} 'he/she speaks' implies 'he/she speaks it', where 'it'
> >is a language or a lecture or whatever. The indirect object of
> {jatlh}, >when expressed, is the hearer/listener. Thus {qama'pu'vaD
> tlhIngan Hol >Dajatlh} 'you speak Klingon to the prisoners',
> {qama'pu'vaD SoQ >Dajatlh} 'you make a speech to the prisoners'. When
> the indirect object >(in this case, the hearer) is first or second
> person, the pronominal >prefix which normally indicates first or
> second person object may be >used. ... There's another wrinkle to
> this. The verb {jatlh} can also be >used when giving direct
> quotations: {tlhIngan jIH jatlh} 'he/she says, >"I am a Klingon",'
> {jatlh tlhIngan jIH} 'he/she says, "I am a >Klingon".' (With verbs of
> saying, such as {jatlh}, the phrase that is >being said or cited may
> come before or after the verb.) If the speaker >is first or second
> person, the pronominal prefix indicating 'no object' >is used:
> {tlhIngan jIH jIjatlh} 'I say, "I am a Klingon",' {tlhIngan >jIH
> bIjatlh} 'you say, "I am a Klingon".' There are instances where the
> >pronominal prefix marks a big distinction in meaning: {tlhIngan Hol
> >Dajatlh} 'you speak Klingon' [vs.] {tlhIngan Hol bIjatlh} 'you say,
> >"Klingon language"' [that is you say the phrase 'Klingon language']."
> >
> >Voragh
> >------------------------------
>
> After reading the above I couldn't help thinking about {pong (v)}
again.
>
> It is repeatedly said that we don't know how the verb is used as we
> haven't been given any cannon examples. I'm sorry for bringing it up
> again but I thought, why isn't pong considered to be a verb of saying?
>
> If it were treated as such then we do have cannon examples as referred
> to {jatlh} etc.
This is one of the most creative suggestions I've ever seen for /pong/.
It's also succint, quite clear to read and doesn't actually propose
any new grammar. By making the name a separate utterance -- and a
name can definitely be a separate utterance, if only in the vocative
(when you are calling someone) -- you sidestep the whole problem of
where to put a second object.
This goes along with another suggestion I've seen and understood:
/vIponglu'DI' Qov jatlhlu'/
> In other words the following sentences might
> translate as:
>
> I call my pet 'lunch' - {SajDaj vIpong . megh}
> or {megh . SajDaj vIpong}
>
> The crew call the ship 'garbage scow' -
> {Duj lupong beqpu' . veQDuj } .
>
> Kahless called his new weapon 'the sword of honour' -
> {nuH chu'Daj pongpu' qeylIS'e' . batlh 'etlh } .
/pongpu'/ implies to me that someone later changed the name. Just
/pong/ for simple past tense.
> I am called qe'San (some call me qe'San) -
> {vIponglu' . qe'San } ????.
Neat suggestion. I like it. I don't think it violates anything. It
doesn't mean it's the way Klingons say it, but I think they would be
able to understand it.
==
Qov - Beginners' Grammarian
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