tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Apr 30 13:20:37 1998
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Re: KLBC: lengmey
ja' Qov:
> At 17:01 98-04-25 -0700, HovqIj wrote:
> }OK, aspects. I think the following story will give me the chance to
> }practise them. I'm not sure what is worse: my Klingon aspects or my
> }English tenses and aspects.
>
> I put this aside because it was long and I was tired. Now I have time to do it.
yImoDQo'. yInuDchu' neH.
>
>
> }DaHjaj teHbogh lut Huj vIQoy.
> }QoQ yupma' wISuch wIneH juppu'wI' jIH je. jIHvaD jatlhtaHvIS wa' jup
> }pay' vay' qaw. Do'Ha' qaSDI' yupma' DachtaH.
>
> {qaStaHvIS yupma'} would make more sense, because you mean over the duration
> of the festival, during the festival.
Hmmm... I don't know. When I wrote this I considered the festival a point of time in
relation to my friend's being absent which I considered a period of time. Thus I get
something like <When the point of time comes at which the festival happens, the
state of her will be that she is absent (before the festival, during the fesival and
after the festival)> So the duration of the festival itself isn't really important,
but the duration of her being absent is. I DO choose my words deliberately
sometimes... but my deliberations can get very confusing...
>
>
> }*Italy*Daq ghIQtaH. Hoch nabchu'ta'. ngoDvam muja'taHvIS ...
>
> You've tried to fit a double object in here. What do you intend as the
> object of {ja'}, yourself, or the fact? Because of the way prefixes work,
> you have to choose one. The evidence we have so far (but the jury is still
> out) indicates that the object of {ja'} is the person spoken to, not the
> thing spoken, so I recommend {jIHvaD ngoDvam jatlhtaHvIS}.
Agreed.
>
>
> }... pay' latlh ngoD qaw. latlh leng DIlnISbe'bogh Suqpu'.
> }(I wanted to say "she won
> }another journey", but the only word for "win" I could find was
> }{Qap}which doesn't seem to work here.).
>
> I did understand what you meant immediately, before looking at the
> translation. I agree with you that the object of transitive {Qap} seems to
> be the contest, not the prize. {noH QapmeH wo' Qaw'lu'chugh ...} (TKW
> p.211). You could use the word {tev} to clarify that she didn't get the
> trip free because she worked for an airline, or some such.
>
> }tlhoS poH rap Daq rapDaq je qaS lengvam.
> }This journey will happen almost at the same time and to the same place
> }(I don't know what the Klingon
> } sounds like, but the English is weird.).
> Yeah, the English has a problem in parallelism. A journey doesn't "happen
> to a place." People say things like this in conversation all the time,
> because you can't go back and change spoken words, but lets discard the
> parallelism in both languages and work with the intended meaning. Look up
> {quq}. I think that's what you need. {tlhoS quq cha' lengmey 'ej rap Daq}.
Good advice. I didn't know {quq}. I'm trying to learn the whole vocabulary, but I
just completed learning all words from b to H in TKD. Learning in alphabetical order
is probably not the best way to learn, but I have to make a lot of annotations to my
dictionary anyway, so I can do both at the same time.
>
>
> }qaSmo'
> }leng DIlnISbe'bogh DuSaQDaq SaHnIStaHvIS jupwI', ghaHvaD qay' .
>
> nghghgh. Mumble. This has some problem relating to its translation form
> English and it's taking me more than a moment to work out exactly what it is.
>
> qaSmo' leng DIlnISbe'bogh - because the journey she doesn't have to pay for
> occurs
>
> DuSaQDaq SaHnIStaHvIS jupwI' - while my friend has to be in school
>
> ghaHvaD qay' - it's a problem for her.
>
> The second clause is attempting to act as a sort of timestamp on the first
> clause. This reads strangely already, because real timestamps always come
> before the verb, but there's nothing forbidding that with a {-taHvIS} time,
> so that's not the whole problem.
>
> I read it as: "Because the journey she need not pay for occurs, while my
> friend is in school it's a problem for her." There is no reason to think
> that the journey occurs while your friend is in school.
>
> If you reverse the order of the first two clauses, then I would read it as
> either "While my friend has to be in school, the journey is a problem for
> her because it occurs" or just as you intended.
>
> I cannot cite a rule or an example for this, and I hate to tell you "no, you
> can't do it this way because I don't like it, and this way that is not
> different under the rules does work." Maybe it's a mental stack problem. It
> seems that to be intelligible, successive clauses have to either chain, or
> all point to the main clause.
>
> So: {qaSmo' A qaStaHvIS B qaS C} works
> 1. if C happens because of A and during B, OR
> 2. if B happens because of A, and C happens during B.
> It doesn't seem to work if A happens during B, and C happens because of A.
>
> I know in your case C happens because (A happens during B), but that's the
> way I read it.
OKOKOK... I *tried* to make clear which clauses belong together by using a comma
between part B and C, but obviously this didn't work. I tend to write too long
sentences. The next time I'll just write { DuSaQDaq SaHnIStaHvIS jupwI' qaS leng
DIlnISbe'bogh. ghaHvaD qay'.} No nasty three clauses, no problems.
>
>
> }DaH
> }wuqta'be' 'ach QoQ yupma' Suchbe'bej.
> } She hasn't decided yet (=now),
>
> Don't forget {wej}. {wej wuqta'}
...er...yeeeesssss... I concentrated too much on timestamps.
>
>
> }tlhIngan 'ay' vIqonta'. DaH lut vImughchoH.
>
> Dubbejpu' laHlIj 'ach DaqqontaHvIS loQ DIvI' Hol Dalo', qar'a'?
>
> maj. Hujba' lut.
::loQ jImon:: yISIvQo'. lut vIqonta' jIH! reH Huj HovqIj.
> qechwIj vIQIj. loS lengmey DuH ghaj juplI': *Italy*Daq
> lenglaH, *Italy*vo' cheghlaH, *Italy*Daq lengqa'laH, *Italy*vo' cheghqa'laH.
> cha'DIch 'ay', wejDIch 'ay' je ngev qoj je'Ha' 'e' nIDnIS. *ItalyDaq
> lengnIS. *Italy*Daq ratlhnIS. tIvnIS. tIvqu'nIS! cheghDI' tev leng,
> cheghnIS. DuSaQ buSHa'nIS jay'. *Italy*Daq ghaHnIStaH 'e' wuq San.
> Sanvetlh tIvnIS. 'eb jonnISchu'. paybe'bej.
>
> That is: She should try to sell (or refund) the return fare portion of the
> ticket she bought and the outward portion of the ticket she won. Then she
> should go to Italy and enjoy herself until the date on the prize return
> ticket. To hell with school, when fate has decided she should be in Italy!
jIyajchu'. jupwI'vaD qeSvam vIja'.lutwIj Huj Dayajchu'mo' jImer. vIlabta'DI'
vIlaDqa'. <lutvam yajlu' chay' 'e' vIpIH?> jIja''egh...
>
>
> Qov [email protected]
> Beginners' Grammarian
HovqIj