tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Apr 21 23:32:53 1998
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Re: chechtaHvIS chIj
- From: WestphalWz <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: chechtaHvIS chIj
- Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 02:32:37 EDT
In a message dated 98-04-20 23:06:25 EDT, SuStel review peHruS' translation of
a morbid story a friend had sent to peHruS:
<< >jIHvaD jabbI'IDvam HIjmeH jupwI' DIvI' Hol lo' ghaH
>tlhIHvaD vImughta'
>
>SoSoy lopno' vIjeSpu' 'ej choja'pu'bogh vIqImbej
(SuStel begins to go into shock.) You have included three highly
questionable constructions into this one sentence!
As we know, {jeS} is *not* defined as "participate in," just as
"participate." Therefore, this should be {lopno'Daq jIjeSpu'} "I have
participated at a celebration."
As we also know, {qIm} is *not* defined as "pay attention to," but as "pay
attention." Sometimes I would recommend {buS}, but not this time: you're
not thinking *only* about the thing, you're just making sure you heed it.
Before I recast this, let me get to the third part.
You've used a headless relative clause as a noun. Despite the fact that I
myself am the person who found such an example spoken by Okrand, I am
exceedingly leery as to its authenticity in the canon of Klingon.
{choja'pu'bogh}, as far as I can tell, should simply never occur in Klingon
(provided that the object of {ja'} is always the person being spoken to).
Finally, your use of perfective is extremely puzzling. Are you saying that
the going to the party is over, but the heeding of the advice is not? Since
you're telling a story, the time of the story should represent neutral
aspect.
Now for the recasting.
lopno'Daq jIjeStaH. choqeSpu' 'ej jIlobtaH.
I was participating at the celebration. You had advised me and I was
obeying.
>chechtlhutlh vItlhutlhbe' 'e' chora' vaj 'awje' neH vItlhutlhta'
Again, what is the appropriate object of {ra'}? In every instance in canon
that I can find (and there are many), the person being commanded is the
object (not explicitly stated, so it *could* be a indirect object prefix
trick), except for one case where there is absolutely no object at all.
Furthermore, I'm of the opinion that {ra'} is a verb of saying. I shall
rewrite this, using two versions. Notice my use of aspect.
Verb of saying:
chechtlhutlh yItlhutlhQo' chora'pu', vaj 'awje' neH vItlhutlhtaH.
You had commanded me not to drink {chechtlhutlh}, so I was drinking only
{'awje'}.
Not a verb of saying:
chuchtlhutlh vItlhutlhbe'meH chora'pu', vaj 'awje' neH vItlhutlhtaH.
You had commanded me so that I would not drink {chechtlhutlh}, so I was
drinking only {'awje'}.
>yabDaq jIHemqu' SoSoy teH choja'pu'bogh
Again, this is a headless relative clause.
teH qeSlIj.
Your advice was true.
qar qeSlIj.
Your advice was correct.
>mIw QaQ vIpabpu' 'e' vISov reH bIlugh 'e' vISov SoSoy
Your use of aspect makes it difficult to know what's taking place when. My
guess is you actually meant this:
mIw QaQ vIpabtaH 'e' vISov. reH bIlugh 'e' vISov, SoSoy.
I know I was following a good procedure. I know you're always right, Mommy.
>DaH rIntaH lopno' chIjchoHpu'mo' vogh wIleghlaHbe'bogh lughoS Hoch
"Because he/she/it/they had begun to navigate, everyone headed toward
someplace which we could not see."
It's much better if you put your subjects early on in the sentence;
otherwise we've got to wait for the whole thing to end before we actually
know who's doing what. I presume your subject is {Hoch}.
Please note that {Hoch} is a singular noun, though it has a plural meaning,
and is grammatically singular. Thus, you need to drop the {lu-} on
{lughoS}.
You're talking about "Now the celebration was over." Then you start talking
about people who "had begun" to navigate. If they started navigating before
the celebration was over, this is fine, otherwise, drop the {-pu'} suffix on
{chIj}.
Finally, I have no idea what the sentence is trying to say! {DaH rIntaH
lopno'. chIjchoHmo' Hoch vogh wIleghlaHbe'bogh ghoS.} "Now the party was
over. Because everyone began to navigate, they headed for someplace which
we couldn't see." Do you mean they drove off into the darkness, or
something? You are being too vague for me to understand this.
>yavDujwIj vIvongtaHvIS juHDaq jIcheghchu' 'e' vISov
"While I was hypnotizing my groundship, I knew I made it all the way home."
Or, "I knew that I made it all the way home while I was hypnotizing my
groundship." Okay, {vong} is obviously a typo. What did you mean? Also,
punctuation would help tremendously to determine if you did the <whatever>
while you knew or while you returned all the way home.
>ngoy'mo' 'ej ngaDmo' chonenchoHmoHmeH niW Dalo'bogh jIQobHa' 'e' vISov
Yikes! What's {nIw}? Did you mean {mIw}?
"Because he/she/it/they was/were responsible and because he/she/it/they
was/were stable, I was undangerous in order that the procedure which you
used you begin to make me mature."
Put the subject after the *first* verb! Please try this sentence again,
carefully! I'm not at all sure what you were saying here.
>lopno' Daqvo' mImejchoH 'ach HeDaq vIchIjchoHDI'......
I presume that was a typo for {jImejchoH} or {mamejchoH}. Which one?
Also, you need {jIchIjchoHDI'}.
>muleghbe' latlh Duj chIjwI' 'ej mupaw'qu' luch 'ughqu' rur
If you use {paw'}, it has no object. Use {ngeQ} if you want to collide into
*something*. Also, don't use {-qu'} if {pe'vIl} works even better!
Your subject keeps changing in the sentence, yet you don't make the change
explicitly. I don't believe you mean that the other ship's navigator
resembled heavy equipment!
I'm not sure what "his ship resembled heavy equipment" would mean, however.
Perhaps a similie is not the best device here. How about a simple statement
of fact?
muleghbe' latlh Duj chIjwI'. pe'vIl DujwIj ngeQ DujDaj 'ughqu'.
Another ship's navigator didn't see me. His very heavy ship collided with
mine forcefully.
>He DungDaq jIQottaHvIS jatlh yaS 'e' vIQoy
Almost perfect. You're not lying in the area above the road, you're lying
*on* the road itself.
HeDaq jIQottaHvIS jatlh yaS 'e' vIQoy.
While I was lying on the road, I heard an officer speak.
>chech chIjwI' cha'DIch 'ach DaH jIpay jIH'e'
"The second navigator is/was drunk. Now *I* regret." You regret what?
>naDev jIQot 'ej jIHeghlI' SoSoy tugh bIpaw 'e' vItul
{jIQottaH} would probably be more effective, but otherwise this sentence is
fine.
>qatlh jIHvaD qaS wanI'vam jorpu' yInwIj jor SuSDeq rur
You're playing with aspect again. Is it {jorpu'} or {jor}? And how does
your life resemble a bellows, or a bellows-type musical instrument? They
don't explode, do they?
>Hoch loghwIjDaq 'Iw tu'lu' 'IwwIj 'oH HochHom'e'
"There is blood in each of my spaces. Almost everything is my blood." What
is this supposed to mean?
>jatlh Qel tugh jIHegh
I presume you mean something like {jatlh Qel tugh bIHegh} "The doctor says,
'You will die soon.'" And the Lord said, "Let there be punctuation!"
>qa'ja' vIneH SoSoy HIq vItlhutlhpu'be' 'e' vI'Ip
>latlh ghotpu' chaH chechtlhutlh tlhutlhwI'pu''e' Qubbe' chaH
>ghaytan lopno' vIjeSpu'bogh jeS je chIjwI'vam chech
Again, {jeS} does not take an object.
>nIbbe' wa' wanI' neH chech ghaH'e' 'ach jIHegh jIH'e'
>qatlh chechtaHvIS chIj nuv yIn naQ QIHlaH
Who can? Is the subject (and the object, in that case) singular or plural?
This is not clear, and probably should be.
>DaH 'oy' jejqu' vIQom taj 'oy' rur
{Qom} is another intransitive verb. Besides, I have no idea what "Now I
experience a very sharp pain an earthquake" is supposed to mean.
>yIt mupaw'pu'bogh chIjwI' maybe' 'e' vIQub SoSoy
yIt mungeQpu'bogh chIjwI'.
>naDev jIQot 'ej jIHeghlI' mubejchu' chIjwI' chech
jIQottaH.
>loDnI'wI'vaD yIja' SoSoy yISaQQo' vavoyvaD yIja' yIyoH
This should either be
SoSoy, loDnI'wI'vaD yIjatlh yISaQQo'; vavoyvaD yIjatlh yIyoH.
Mommy, tell my brother not to cry, tell daddy to be brave.
or
SoSoy, loDnI'wI' yIja' yISaQQo'; vavoy yIja' yIyoH.
Mommy, tell my brother not to cry; tell daddy to be brave.
Note: If you think "mommy" and "daddy" sound silly in this context (I do),
they should be changed to {SoS} and {vav}, respectively. Since the {-oy}
suffix tends to be dropped when one reaches adulthood, and since "mommy" and
"daddy" tend to change to "mom" and "dad" around that same time, this makes
sense.
>'ej yo' qIj vImuvpu'DI' molwIjDaq mu'mey vavoy puqbe' yInan
It took me a while to figure out that you were using your usual apposition
with {mu'mey vavmoy puqbe'}. PUNCTUATION! When speaking, the {vavoy
puqbe'} would be verbally set aside a bit to make it clear that it's a
quotation. Do the same with punctuation!!!!!
>chIjwI'vetlhvaD ja'nISlu'pu' bIchechtaHvIS yIchIjQo'
More aspect problems, and {jatlh} would be better suited to this than {ja'}.
I don't think the {-pu'} is appropriate at all.
>ghaHvaD ja'lu'pu'chugh vaj jIyInlaHtaH
Same problems as above. Also, I'm curious as to what "If someone has told
to him, then I will be able to be living."
>SoSoy Qatlh jItlhuHmeH 'ej jIHajchoH
Qatlh tlhutlhtaHghach. jIHajchoH.
Breathing is difficult. I begin to dread.
It would probably be better to say what you dread. Death? {mughIj Hegh}
"death scares me."
>jIHmo' yISaQQo' qapoQpu'DI' reH jIH retlhDaq SoHpu'
>SoSoy Qapla' jIjalthpa' jIghel neH
You're obviously translating "Before I say goodbye." One *might*
rationalize your translation by saying that the mother is about to begin a
battle with her own grief or something, but that's unsatisfying. I'd change
it to something like {jIHeghpa' rIntaH} "before I have finally died."
>jIchIjpa' HIq vItlhutlhpu'be' vaj qatlh jIHeghnIS jIH
You've added extraneous aspect again. {jIchIjpa' HIq vItlhutlhbe'} "Before
I navigated, I did not drink liquor."
>qatlh Hegh chunwI'pu'
>HIq HoS lutIv Hoch tlhInganna' net Sov
>pengoy'
>vaj SuvtaHvIS batlh Hegh Hoch jay'
bIqeSchu'! 'ej batlh bImughpu'!
SuStel >>
----------------------peHruS answers-----------
choquvmoH SuStel
QIn vImughta'bogh DalughmoHmo' qatlho'
I will not comment on all the corrections in just this one reply.
1. The first comment is really important in that SuStel and peHruS feel
strongly and differently about the transitivity of Klingon verbs. peHruS
feels that [almost] any Klingon verb, as long as it is not a stative verb
only, may be either transitive or intransitive. Thus, in the case of {jeS}
(participate), when there is an object of the verb, the translation of {jeS}
becomes (participate in). My evidence lies not so much in what TKD says about
verbs but in what TKD says about -Daq (locative) (TKD 3.3.5). This suffix
indicates that something is happening in the vicinity of the noun to which it
is attached. It is normally translated by an English preposition: to, in,
at, on.
Although I could be wrong, I strongly feel that -Daq (locative) indicates
where the action is taking place, not the inseparable concepts of
verb+preposition in Gothic languages. Therefore, I do not believe that -Daq
completes the prepositional concept "in" when it follows {jeS}. Thus, {veng
wa'DIchDaq lopno' vIjeS} is the sentence I strongly prefer over {veng wa'DIch
lopno'Daq jIjeS}.
In my humble opinion, awaiting full clarification from Marc Okrand, there are
may other Klingon verbs (including {qIm}) which include the inseparable
[English] prepositional concept when the verb takes an object.
2. {choja'pu'bogh} is descried by SuStel as having no head. Am I wrong in
claiming that the verb pronomial prefix IS the head?
3. I agree that {ra'} is a verb of saying. I like your recasting.
I also agree that {ja'} and {ra'} have the person as the object, so you are
correct.
4. {Hoch} is singular. I did misuse the verb pronomial previx {lu-}.
5. <<Finally, I have no idea what the sentence is trying to say! {DaH rIntaH
lopno'. chIjchoHmo' Hoch vogh wIleghlaHbe'bogh ghoS.} "Now the party was
over. Because everyone began to navigate, they headed for someplace which
we couldn't see." Do you mean they drove off into the darkness, or
something? You are being too vague for me to understand this.>>
Well, that's what the original English said: "...headed for someplace which
we could not see."
6. >yavDujwIj vIvongtaHvIS juHDaq jIcheghchu' 'e' vISov
{vong} should have been typed as {yong}
7. >lopno' Daqvo' mImejchoH 'ach HeDaq vIchIjchoHDI'......
I presume that was a typo for {jImejchoH} or {mamejchoH}. Which one?
Also, you need {jIchIjchoHDI'}.
That was a type: s/b jImejchoH
However, I like vIchIjchoHDI'..... with the object no stated but implied!
8. {paw'} See KGT pp157-158: The word literally means "collide" and is
usually (though hardly exclusively) heard when referring to vehicles.
<<<>>>takes a plural subject. <<<>>> To refer to a something in motion
colliding with something stationary, a different verb, {ngeQ} ("bump into,
collide with") is used.
In conclusion, I should have written {pe'vIl paw' DujwIj DujDaj je}
9. >He DungDaq jIQottaHvIS jatlh yaS 'e' vIQoy
If I do not use {Dung}, how will I distinguish that the girl was not lying
beside {retlh} the road? True, she is not suspended in the space above the
road. But, neither is a book which is on a chair as opposed to under it,
beside it, inside it, etc. I would have said quS DungDaq paqwIj tu'lu', too!
>Hoch loghwIjDaq 'Iw tu'lu' 'IwwIj 'oH HochHom'e'
Is this better: Hoch loghmeywIjDaq 'Iw tu'lu' 'IwwIj 'oH 'Iw 'op'e'
10. >jatlh Qel tugh jIHegh
I presume you mean something like {jatlh Qel tugh bIHegh} "The doctor says,
'You will die soon.'" And the Lord said, "Let there be punctuation!"
There is a problem here. In English *The doctor said that I will die soon.*
But, your rendition into Klingon makes more sense. It is not the doctor who
is dying. It is the girl.
11. >DaH 'oy' jejqu' vIQom taj 'oy' rur
This should have been {DaH 'oy' jejqu' vISIQ}
12. I will discuss with you later some of the reading I have done regarding
{-meH}.
I agree that SoSoy and vavoy are for Klingon children. Even though this
Earthling girl is a teenager and could be feeling very much like a little
child at the obvious end of her life, when translating into a target language,
I should have used the customs of the target language people.
In conclusion, I sincerely thank SuStel for his patience, review, and
corrections. This is the way I learn, and it helps all the beginners who are
reading our posts, too.
peHruS