tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sat Aug 24 17:13:47 1996

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From/to (was KLBC: Sentence for Martial Arts Project.)

At 10:18 AM 8/22/96 -0700, Mark E. Shoulson wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 22:35:01 -0700
>>From: [email protected] (HoD trI'Qal)
>
>
>>Okay, now... "from right to left".  This is definitely a spatial issue, and
>>this isone of the times when you WILL use the type 5 noun suffix, -Daq
>>(which is often much abused).  You will also want to use the type 5 noun
>>suffix -v' ("from").  To say "from right to left", you need only say:
>
>>   nIHvo' poSDaq
>
>>Unfortunately, nouns with type 5's *generally* go before the object of your
>>sentence (the only exception I can think of is the type 5 -'e', the
>>topicalizer).  In other words, even though this is at the END of the English
>>sentence, it has to come *first* in the Klingon.  Since it is associated
>>with the main part of the sentence, it needs only go in front of that part,
>>as sppoed to the whole thing:
>
>
>>   ghommeH ghojwI'pu' ra'DI' nIHvo' poSDaq ghojmoHwI' ghom  ghojwI'pu'


I'm surprised no one (Mark) caught this... I put the <nIHvo' poSDaq> in
fornt of <ghojmoHwI'>.  It really should have been:

        ghommeH ghojwI'pu' ra'DI' ghojmoHwI' nIHvo' poSDaq ghom  ghojwI'pu'

DopDaq qul yIchenmoH QobDI' ghu'.


>>You can add in "from Junior to Senior" the same way... right after <nIHvo'
>>poSDaq>.  You can either seperate them with a comma, as is done in English,
>>or put a <je> after the "from right to left, from Junior to Senior"
>>structure... which would make it mean "from fright to left and from junior
>>to senior".  I'm going to leave that part of the translation as an exercise
>>for the student. {{:)
>
>Actually, I think you, trI'Qal, fell into a bit of a trap here too.  "From
>right to left" and "from junior to senior" don't seem to go neatly as such
>into Klingon.


In this case, I didn't think the resulting sentence would be too confusing.
There is nothing that I am aware of that says we cannot have more than one
noun with a Type-5 attached to it in a sentence.

Maybe it is my "English-centered" thinking, but I see absolutely nothing
wrong with what I gave here.  I don't see the "trap" to which you are
referring at all.


>I prefer to charghwI' approach, of doing even more recasting.  Something
>like: 
>
>mochDaj nIHDaq QamnIS Hoch nuv. / Every person must stand to the right of
>his/her superior.  (or maybe it was the left, whatever).


This certainly works, but I didn't think that a re-casting was *required*
here, and honestly, I think it is less clear than the original.  I stand by
what I offered.


>That avoids trying to hold the whole sequence of "from/to" in Klingon, when
>after all the important relationship is one-to-one.
>
>OK, maybe people standing near each other aren't in direct command
>hierarchy, but suitable choices of words can get around that.  It's the
>by-twos approach that I think works better.  Unfortunately, that's not an
>easy thing for a beginner, of course... but neither was the sentence to
>begin with.


I wasn't aware that there was an on-going debate about how to say
"from"/"to".  If so, perhaps you can give me the subject line so I can dig
out the old posts, as I really do not see what issue you are bringing up
here; there is nothing that forbids two type-5 nouns in a sentence (to my
knowledge.  I know I am certainly not up 100% with all the existing canon,
because we had so much recently), and the resulting sentence is very clear
(to me, anyway).  I am a firm believer in re-casting, but I don't think this
situation warrents it at all.


>~mark


--tQ


---
HoD trI'Qal, tlhIngan wo' Duj lIy So' ra'wI'
Captain T'rkal, Commander IKV Hidden Comet
Klingon speaker and net junkie!
HaghtaHbogh tlhIngan yIvoqQo'!  toH... qatlh HaghtaH Qanqor HoD???
monlI'bogh tlhInganbe' yIvoqQo'!  SoHvaD monlI' trI'Qal...

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