tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Feb 21 15:17:42 1995
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Re: -neS
>Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 08:25:28 -0500
>Originator: [email protected]
>From: [email protected] (Bill Willmerdinger)
> uu> From: "Mark E. Shoulson" <ur-valhalla!cs.columbia.edu!shoulson>
> uu> Subject: petaQneS ;-)
> >From: [email protected] (Steve Weaver)
> >petaQnes *charghwI'* (Should have been petaQneS, {HIvqa' veqlargh}. I typed
> >"S" but it came out "s". ;-) ) was trying to say "*charghwI'*, you're being
> >wierd (respectfully)". One should always be respectful of ones "elders"
> >(meant in the non-age related sense).
> uu> Ah, but "petaQneS" doesn't mean "your honor, you are weird." It means
> uu> "All of your honors, be weird!" It's a command to more than one
> uu> person. To indicate that one person is doing something with no object
> uu> in second person, use "bI-". Check that prefix-table!
>Let's take a step back...
>I'd like to discuss {-neS}. This seems to be the least used verb suffix, and
>not because Klingons don't use it a lot, but because it is so badly
>explained.
>In TKD, Okrand says "it is used to express extreme ploiteness or deference."
>Okay, fine so far. His examples are {qaleghneS} and {HIja'neS}, which he
>translates as "I am honored to see you" and "Do me the honor of telling me."
>Yet, on PK, he consistantly stranslates {-neS} as "your honor."
It's Okrand's way of making the honorific form of "-neS" show in English
translation. We don't have syntactic ways of showing deference and
respect, so he's using the way we *do* have: using a direct respectful
vocative. Doesn't make it a "translation", but then there's no such thing
as a true translation. It's his way of casting the Klingon into English.
>I personally dislike "your honor." It does NOT fit in with the way other
>suffixes translate at all.
Not if you think of it as it was meant. -neS simply means "I'm saying
whatever I'm saying, and while I'm at it I am being mighty respectful to
you, whoever I'm talking to."
>I prefer the more context sensative translation of his TKD examples. It also
>seems to me that {-neS} used that way would only apply to verbs that take an
>object (even though it doesn't explicitly state that in TKD).
Not so. What do objects have to do with anything? Even in the "your
honor" mode, you can have that without objects. Note canon
counterexamples: "DojneS mIplIj"/"Your wealth is impressive (your honor)"
and "po'neS baHpu'lIj"/"Your gunners are skillful (your honor)." Note,
too, that the person addressed has very little place in these sentences.
I'd bet that you could even say something like "QIpneS loDnI'wI'" for "my
brother is stupid, your honor" (or rather "my brother is stupid" spoken
respectfully to the hearer).
~mark