tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Oct 19 08:34:27 2015

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[Tlhingan-hol] Klingon language known issues

Doug Henning ([email protected]) 

<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:16px"><div><span></span></div><div></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_8970">&nbsp;</div><div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_8985" style="display: block;"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_8984" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_8983" style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_8990"><div id="yiv1760793124"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_8989"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_8988" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div id="yiv1760793124"><div id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_5242"><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"></div><div id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_3910" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir="ltr">Consider the following three alternate questions:</div><div id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4060" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4059" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir="ltr">Are there any known issues/limitations in the English language? I mean for example, lack of the ability to translate into English certain handling verbs, lack of a momentaneous, semelfactive, and repetitive verb contrasts, etc.? Vocabulary aside, are there in English grammar deficiencies which would make the translation of a Navajo text into English impossible?</div><div id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_3925" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_3911" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir="ltr">Are there any known issues/limitations in the English language? I mean for example, lack of the ability to translate into English certain noun classifiers, lack of&nbsp;tense and aspect particles, etc.? Vocabulary aside, are there in English grammar deficiencies which would make the translation of a Chinese text into English impossible?</div><div id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4094" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_3570" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir="ltr">Are there any known issues/limitations in the English language? I mean for example, lack of the ability to translate into English certain honorific forms, lack of a causative suffix, etc.? Vocabulary aside, are there in English grammar deficiencies which would make the translation of a Klingon text into English impossible?</div><div id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_3924" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4164" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir="ltr">********</div><div id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4058" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4155" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir="ltr">Every language has a grammar that emphasizes some contrasts at the expense of others, and the lack of a particular contrast is not a deficiency. The only way to pack every logically possible contrast into a language is to follow the route of Ithkuil and similar attempts to add precision to language. Otherwise, a given language will morphologically or lexically encode some aspects of semantic space while ignoring others or expressing them periphrastically, e.g. adding "again and again" in English to emphasize the repetition that is obligatorily conjugated in Navajo as a separate aspect. </div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_9083" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir="ltr">Klingon marks causatives directly on the verb, where English uses phrases like "You made him verb"&nbsp;or "You had him verb" to express the idea of one participant in a clause causing the action that another participant takes, along with the unproductive suffix "-en" on adjectives like "darken" or "redden". Klingon may not be able to have a sentence as a subject, but English (with traditional grammar) cannot have a sentence without an expressed&nbsp;subject, as the pro-drop language Chinese can.</div><div id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4203" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_5317" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir="ltr">You bring up passive voice, which emphasizes the patient of the verb by making the object of the active verb the subject. Klingon has two ways to do something similar: using the indefinite subject &lt;-lu'&gt; when the object is to be emphasized without mentioning the subject: &lt;torgh HoHlu'&gt;&nbsp;= "Someone killed Torg", which is close to "Torg was killed." You can also explicitly mention a pronominal object or &lt;-'e'&gt;-suffix the object noun to topicalize it e.g. &lt;ghaH HoH&gt; = "He/she killed *<em id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_9084">him/her*</em>" or &lt;torgh'e' HoH ghawran&gt; "Gowron killed *<em id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4640">Torg*</em>"&nbsp;which is close to&nbsp;"Torg was killed by Gowron". (Note that if you are using the passive voice to create suspense until the killer is revealed, Klingon word order does this for you anyway.) None of these constructions are actually in the passive voice but they convey most of the same meaning as the English passive voice does. </div><div id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_5379" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_5362" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir="ltr">Even irrealis meanings are possible but, unless Maltz remembers an irrealis adverb, require context or some sort of periphrastic construction like &lt;tlhIngan SoHbe' 'ach SoHchugh bIquv&gt; to be unambiguous. However, as Quvar said, the missing components aren't really needed, any more than Chinese needs tense.</div><div id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_3599" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_3579" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir="ltr"><br id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_3549" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv1760793124signature" id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4639" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: normal; font-family: garamond,; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Doug Henning</div><div class="yiv1760793124signature" id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4573" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: normal; font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 14pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv1760793124signature" id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4574" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: normal; font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 14pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir="ltr"><font id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_5302" face="lucida console, sans-serif"><strong id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4568">SIqral bIQtIQDaq<br id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4569" clear="none">joqtaHbogh molor tIqDu' qem qeylIS<br id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4570" clear="none">bIQ DoqDaq tlhabmoH<br id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4571" clear="none">- paq'batlh, paq'raD 23 «Hay' chaH»</strong><br id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4572" clear="none"></font><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv1760793124signature" id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_3606" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br clear="none"></div><div id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_5498" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">  <br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv1760793124qtdSeparateBR" id="yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_5391" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div></div></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_9089"> <div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_9088" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_9087" style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div class="yiv1760793124qtdSeparateBR"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv1760793124yqt9739135450" id="yiv1760793124yqt81601"><div class="yiv1760793124yqt7654211044" id="yiv1760793124yqt61840"><div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> On Monday, October 19, 2015 9:43 AM, qunnoQ HoD &lt;[email protected]&gt; wrote:<br clear="none"> </font> </div>  <br clear="none"><br clear="none"> <div class="yiv1760793124y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_9086"><div id="yiv1760793124"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_9085" dir="ltr"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_9090"><div><div>I've been meaning to ask..<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div>Whenever you download a program,there is usually a section in the developer's page where the "known issues" concerning the application are described ; bugs,problems etc..<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div>Are there any known issues/limitations in the Klingon language ? I mean for example,lack of the ability to translate into Klingon certain tenses,lack of a passive voice etc ? Vocabulary aside,are there in Klingon grammar deficiencies which would make the translation of an english text into Klingon impossible ?<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div>qunnoQ<br clear="none"></div></div><br clear="none">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br clear="none"><a id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_9091" href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a><br clear="none"><a id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_9092" href="http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol"; target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div></div></div>  </div> </div>  </div></div></div></div><br><br></div>  </div> </div>  </div> </div></body></html>
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