tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Jul 31 13:10:03 2013
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] bom mu'mey
<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>On 2013-07-31, at 9:47, "Bellerophon, modeler" <<a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>> wrote:</div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr">Qapla'! Immigrant Song it is, Russ.<div><br></div><div>Robyn, thanks for the detailed analysis. chu'chu'wI' jIH.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>qaStaHvIS cha'maH chorgh DIS mu'ghomvetlh DaghajtaH. bIchu'chu' 'e' DamaqlaHbe'. mu'ghom chu' yIje'. lI'bej De' chu'. <div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>which can call for clipping or some other deviation from normal grammar. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Have a look at Hamlet sometime. One does not need to abuse the language for the sake of rhyme or meter. </div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>I used superfluous pronouns to fill in the meter. Some parts of my translation are not as good as others. bIQHalmey isn't the destination for maghoS; it just ended up there due to the meter but it messes up the meaning so I'll try to fix it. I was completely stumped at "western shore" and rendered it as "puH Hop." </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>bIQ'a' HeH is ocean shore, but puH Hop works fine. Klingons have only three cardinal directions: tIng (SW) 'ev (NW) and chan (E) so that doesn't help you too much. </div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>(I gave up when the best I could do was "puH', 'emDaqbogh jaH pemHov," or land behind which goes the sun.) I'm glad the "threshing oar" was recognizable thanks to the Dujmey. I left the moH out of bochenmoHqa' by mistake, and bochenmoHqa' fits. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div><div style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">bochenqa'moH (hilariously I typed only up to the n and my iPhone autocorrect suggested the rest. My iPhone knows its suffix order).</div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>Building new ruins is definitely not what I meant.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>I know, and perhaps that is clear in Klingon, too. It was just the first interpretation that crossed my mind. I don't know that tI' is better. </div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>I look forward to seeing you all at qep'a' cha'maH wa'DIch.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Hurray! I hope you can come for more than one day next year. <div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div>Here is another version in which I hope I fixed everything. It mostly seems to follow the meter of the original song. I changed the verb in the second line to macholbejlI'.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>I am not a music person and do not know the original song, so do not take anything I say as confirmation of meter or desired meaning. </div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div> The original song just says "we come" but this fits and is more threatening. I rendered "peace and trust" as "roj meq je". Doesn't meq mean "reason, logic" as opposed to "reason, motive"? </div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Yes.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div>The conquered had better listen to reason. (Don't know what I was doing with latlh in there. Must have been losing consciousness.) There is still much room for improvement.</div>
<div><br></div><div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><u>pawwI' </u><u>chu'</u><u> bom</u></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
'a a a 'a'! 'a a a 'a'!</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">chuch puHvo', SoDtaH bIQHalmey tujDaq</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>A noun with a -vo' or -Daq suffix must always precede the clause that it provided the setting for so the verb can't go there. </div><div><br></div><div>chuch puHvo' SoDtaH bIQHalmey tuj. </div><div>= Hot springs flood from the land of ice. </div><div><br></div><div>chuch puHvo', SoDtaHbogh bIQHalmey tujvo' ...</div><div>= From the land of ice, from the flooding hot water sources ...</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">ramjep pemHovvo' macholbejlI' maH.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>That works. ramjep pem would work alone, too. </div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">puHmeyDaQ Dujmeymaj yuv Qunpu' mupwI',</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>DaQ still means ponytail. The locative is -Daq. </div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">novghom'a' wISuvmo', wIbomtaH, wIjachtaH: Suto'vo'qor, jIghoStaH!</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>It's a little confusing having you say the you sing it before you say what you sing. I know wIbom has an object and in Klingon I expect to know what the object is before I reach the verb. Can you swap that around?</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">maDonchuqtaH, moqtaH bI'wI'mo'. wa' ngoQmaj 'oHbej puH Hop'e'.</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">tunqu' bIH yotlhmeyraj SuDqu''e'. 'Iwmo' lutmey tlhuplaH bIH,</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>That's a lot more understandable.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
veS yu'eghmey DIjotmoHta'. joHpu'raj joHpu' maH.</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">DaH SumevnIS tlhiH 'ej pIghraj botI'nISqa',</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>tlhIH. </div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
wa'leS che'qa'taH roj meq je. 'ach jajvam SulujtaH.</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">'a a, 'a a a'</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">'a a, 'a a a'</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">[DIr'Inmey]</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">'eD</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>- Qov<br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Russ Perry Jr <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><div>Qov, it's Led Zeppelin's "Immigrant Song".</div>
</div><div><br>On Jul 31, 2013, at 5:05 AM, Robyn Stewart <<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div>On 2013-07-30, at 23:15, "Bellerophon, modeler" <<a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>I attempted a translation of a song that needs to be in Klingon. Let's see if anyone recognizes it. I took some artistic license: </div></div></div></blockquote>
<div><br></div>Artistic license is when you translate English with a valid word that means something else. Making noun-verb compounds or using a word as the wrong part of speech is just abuse. <div><br><blockquote type="cite">
<div><div dir="ltr"><div>I coined "chu'pawwI" </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Your meaning is covered without grammatical error by <span>pawwI' chu' - one who arrives and who is new. Also:</span><br>
chu'wI' - one who is new <div>taghwI' - beginner</div><div>chu'chu'wI' - complete newbie</div><div><br></div><div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>for newcomer, which is close to the word in the English title, and used "ped" as a noun. </div>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>ped is nothing. peD is a verb. </div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>I committed other crimes to try to fit the meter, and there will always be typos.</div>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>The issue here is what do you want us to do about it? I'm happy to help someone write clearer, more grammatical Klingon, but when he says, "look at this thing I did, I know it's wrong, I did that on purpose," what is the point? I'll try to guess what you don't know and say what it means to me as I read it. </div>
<div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr">
<div><u>chu'pawwI' bop</u></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>pawwI' chu' bop</div><div>It is about the new arrival. </div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>chuch ped </div>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>chuch peD je - it also snows ice</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>puHvo' ramjep</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr">
<div>pemHovvo'</div><div>SoDtaH </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>From the land, from the midnight daytime star (we have a word jul now for sun, but I just figured out from the English term that you might mean "from the land of the midnight sun"). Create your noun-noun grouping first, then put -vo' on the final element. </div>
<div><br></div><div>ramjep jul puH - midnight sun land</div><div><br></div><div>ramjep jul puHvo' SoDtaH - It floods from the midnight sun land<br><div><br></div>A noun with -Daq or -vo' goes at the beginning of its clause, so when I see one in the middle of a sentence without a conjunction or punctuation, I get confused. I'm inserting sentence breaks where that happens. <br>
<br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>bIQHalmey tujDaq maghoS maH.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>I'm okay with bIQHalmey tuj for hot springs, but bIHDaq maghoS means that we proceed already in them. You probably want bIH DIghoS, we go to them. <br>
<div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr">
<div>puHmeyDaQ </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>DaQ is ponytail. I know you mean "-Daq."</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>Dujmeymaj yuv Qunpu' mupwI',</div></div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div>So, "the gods' hammer pushes our ships to lands," Or maybe "on the lands"</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>novghom'a' wISuvmo', </div>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>because we fight an alien horde. <br><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>wIbomtaH, wIjachtaH: Suto'vo'qor, jIghoStaH!</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>
</div>We sing it, we scream it, Valhalla, I'm coming. </div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>DonchuqtaH maH,</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>We go parallel to one another, (don't forget the prefix on maDon) </div>
<div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div> moqtaH bI'wI'mo'. wa' ngoQmaj 'oHbej puH Hop'e'.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span>because our oars beat. (I like that one, given the ship context, bI'wI' is understandable as oar. Distant land is definitely one of our goals. </span><br>
<blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
<div><br></div><div>tunqu' bIH yotlhmey SuDqu''e'.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>The green fields are so soft. </div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div> 'Iwmo' lutmey tlhuplaH bIH,</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div>They can whisper songs because of blood. </div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
<div>veS yu'eghmey DIjotmoHta' 'e'. </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>We have calmed the waves of warfare. (no idea what that 'e' is trying to do)</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
<div>joHpu'raj joHpu' maH.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>We are the lords of your lords. </div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div>
DaH SumevnIS tlhiH 'ej pIghraj bochenqa',</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>You must stop now and you will -- okay you're going for "rebuild your ruins." The subject of chen is the thing that takes form. With another actor, use chenmoH. pIghraj bochenqa'moH makes me first think of building new ruins. Is that an idiom in English?</div>
<div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div>'ach wa'leS lutlhlaH roj voq ej, 'ach jajvam SulujtaH.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>But tomorrow the peace can be primitive ... and he trusts it? ('ej is in the wrong place) .. but this day you are losing. </div>
<div><br></div></div></div><div>So from context it's a Viking song, but I don't know it. </div><div><br></div><div>People always feel compelled to translate songs, and are often affronted when we beg them to walk before they run, but there we are.</div>
<div><br></div><div>qep'a'Daq qaqIH 'e' vItIv. wa' nem qaStaHvIS wanI' naQ bISaH 'e' vItul. </div><div><br></div><div>And 'angghal seemed to think you owed him money. </div><div><br></div>
<div>- Qov</div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Tlhingan-hol mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:[email protected]"; target="_blank">[email protected]</a></span><br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>My modeling blog: <a href="http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/"; target="_blank">http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/</a><br>My other modeling blog: <a href="http://bellerophon.blog.com/"; target="_blank">http://bellerophon.blog.com/</a><br>
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