tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Jan 02 09:54:10 2012
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] On the word {tlho'} and its kin
Thank you. I've been thinking a lot about this because I've been
working with thanks and apology in my story lately. Here we have a
language with the words tlho' and tlhIj but a culture where you don't
say these things. I've tried to contrast the non-Klingon aliens in
one part of the story with the Klingons in the other part.
In over 50,000 words my uses of tlho' by or about Klingons are only these:
jIyIntaHmo' 'oy'vetlh vItlho'. = could almost have been 'oy'vetlhmo' jIQuch
matlh 'Ipba'ta' DeghwI' 'ach DaH 'Ip tlho'laH HoD. = similar to
'oHmo' Do', but luck didn't really enter into it.
"ghIrel Dutlho'bejjaj yo' qIj." = There should have been a comma
there. "May the Black Fleet most decidedly thank you, ghIrel." This
doesn't specify what form the thanks should take. He could well mean,
"They'd better give you a fine ship to captain."
A crew who is rescued owes their lives to three different parties for
the rescue. I'm writing a scene now where they beam down for the
purpose of what in English would be to thank the person who
recognized their distress call for what it was and passed it on to
the proper authorities. Humans would say "thank you" maybe bring her
a case of beer (ok that's Canadians). I have a member of the Klingon
crew say "We have to honour her" and I think I have worked out what
will happen in this scene, and it turns out to be mean more to the
recipient of their thanks than they know, but they will never say
words resembling <pItlho'>.
In person when humans are speaking Klingon and feel a need to express
thanks we often say "choquvmoH." That expression for me predates the
word tlho', so seems more genuine Klingon anyway. (I learned Klingon
from the first edition TKD, so everything since has been a mu' chu'
for me! The way my mother considers the Original Six to be the only
real NHL teams.) I try to avoid overuse of that, so it doesn't just
become the Klingon for thank you. As I check, about half the
instances of me using quvmoH are actual descriptions of someone
actions honouring their family/ship and the other half are someone
shining someone's nose.
Here's something I recently wrote that shows I support your idea of
gratitude as a kind of charge that accumulates. A Klingon has
received an unexpected gift from someone. He didn't say thank you for
the gift, and the gift was an unstated thank you for something he had
done for a friend of the donor.
motlh tlho'chuqbe'mo' tlhInganpu', vI'law'taH tlho'nISghachchaj; chaq
SomDaq vI'taHbogh tatmey rur. Som wewmoH 'ej tlhInganpu' vuvqu'chuqmoH.
I agree with you that Klingon thanks should be action not a word that
takes the place of any real expression of gratitude.
I've left out numerous instances of non-Klingons saying thank you,
and a search for tlhIj was almost hilarious in the amount of
apologizing my non-Klingons do.
I decided to have a Klingon scientist explicitly say <jItlhIj> but
she was speaking to an alien, and she was experienced with alien
cultures, and understood the concept of alien word-rituals different
from replacement proverbs. She isn't, however, comfortable with the
concept of abasement as part of the ritual of apology. And what do
Klingons with no knowledge of alien cultures do with that word, tlhIj?
Perhaps this. In one scene a Klingon offers a replacement proverb for
poor behaviour and in assessing his attitude towards her, the other
Klingon thinks, <SIbI' tlhIjta'>. I'm not sure if that's right. Does
<qa'meH vIttlhegh ja'ta'> mean roughly the same thing as <tlhIjta'>
to a Klingon? I've used tlhIj twice as though it did.
A crewmember says: "HoD, ghu'vam vIqaSmoHta'mo' jItlhIj." He's
deliberately precipitated an uncomfortable situation. He's not sorry.
It doesn't constitute a loss of honour, in fact he's done it to
preserve people's honour. He's not looking for forgiveness. He just
wants to acknowledge that he knows he brought this upon them and that
the captain may not be at this moment entirely happy about the situation.
For me QoS is a word to express sympathy, or sometimes regret, never apology.
Maybe I'll start putting more footnotes about these decisions I'm
making, because I really like this kind of discussion. You see
anything that doesn't seem Klingon or seems an odd choice in my
story, please pull it out so we can debate it and all get better.
- Qov
At 02:57 02/01/2012, you wrote:
I've been thinking: We humans are all very used to expressing our
emotions through words. If we are grateful, we say "Thank you!". If
we are sorry, we say "I'm sorry."
Words are so powerful that we are sometimes afraid to utter them, or
worry what will happen if we don't. Case in point: "I love you."
Indeed, words are so valuable to us that they can be claimed in
penance: You can demand an apology of somebody, and a court can even
sentence you to make a public apology.
Klingons have their own ritual words, for example in the case of
qa'meH vIttlheghmey and peghmey vIttlheghmey.
In general, though, Klingons are known to be more action-oriented.
Indeed, the last time I checked my copy of TKW, the proverb
{bI'IQchugh, yab Qel yISuch.} wasn't in there, and in PK, Worf
explicitly states that Klingons don't say "Excuse me" or "Thank
you". {nughpu' pIm, tIghmey pIm.}
Indeed, MO has stated many times that Klingons don't say {qatlho'},
and I guess we shouldn't be surprised. After all, what function does
this word actually serve? If you really NEED to state satisfaction
explicitly, there's already the word {maj}, not to mention verbs
such as {Quch} and {bel}.
I've been thinking, therefore: What if the word {tlho'} refers to
something more than just uttering a ritualized set of words? What if
it actually refers to repaying somebody's honorable actions, not
because it is demanded of one but because one feels gratitude towards them?
When somebody does something towards you that merit gratitude, you
might ask {chay' qatlho'laH} ("How can I thank you?") or
{qatlho'nIS}** ("I must thank you"). If one DID say simply
{qatlho'}, it would be to say "I will do something to thank you"; it
would be a promise of an act to come, not the act itself.
One might also say something like {ghaH vItlho'meH ghaHvaD targhwIj
nIvqu' vInob}; "I shall give him my finest targ as thanks".
{DutoDbogh tera'nganvaD qagh Danobchugh, Datlho'Ha'.} - "Giving a
Terran gagh is a poor way of thanking her for saving your life."
{tlho'meH targh} - "thank you targ" ('cuz thank you cards are for weaklings)
...or perhaps {tlho'} really DOES refer to being in a grateful
state, in which case one might imagine it being used in such
sentences as {vavlI' vItlho'mo' ghojwI'wI' Damoj 'e' vIlaj.} ("I
accept you as my pupil because I owe a debt of gratitude to your
father.") or {bItlho'chugh yIvang!} ("If you are grateful, act!").
The phrase {qatlho'} would then be interpreted as "I am grateful
towards you", with the implication that one intends to repay the
addressee; again, it is a promise of an act to come, not the act itself.
In this case, {tlho'Ha'} would not mean "to thank somebody badly",
and perhaps it wouldn't even mean "to be ungrateful" in the way that
we understand it, but rather "to be possessed of misplaced
gratitude", or perhaps "to have repaid one's debt of gratitude".
{ghaH vItlho'Ha'choHmeH ghaHvaD targhwIj nIvqu' vInob.} - "In order
to become ungrateful towards her, I shall give her my finest targ."
{*je'raD* tuq tlho'Ha'mo' tlhIngan yejquv woQ'a' 'oHtaH DuraS
tuq'e'.} - "Because the Klingon High Council has a misplaced sense
of gratitude towards Ja'rod, it remains a political powerhouse."
{mutoDDI' vItlho'choH 'ej vItoDDI' vItlho'Ha'choH.} - "I became
grateful towards him when he saved my life, and became ungrateful
when I saved his.")
{mutoDDI' vItlho'choH 'ach vavwI' chotDI' vItlho'Ha'.} - "I became
grateful towards her when she saved my life, but lost my gratitude
when she murdered my father.}
{vay' DaSeHchu'meH SoHvaD Datlho'nISmoH.} - "To truly control
somebody, make them grateful towards you.}
{vay' vItlho'lI'chugh reH jIbelHa'.} - "I can never be satisfied as
long as I have an unpaid debt of gratitude."
{reH tlho'taH qoH neH.} - "Only fools are possessed with undying gratitude."
One might also imagine the NOUN {tlho'} taking on a somewhat
different role from its English counterparts. While "gratitude" is a
feeling that normally persists even after the feeling of debt has
subsided, and is often regarded as a positive feeling, perhaps
{tlho'} is more of a need which subsides once it has been satisfied.
{may'Daq mutoDDI' muDuQ tlho''a' 'a ngugh wa'ben latlh may'Daq ghaH
vItoD. vaj vItlho' rIntaH.} - "I was struck with great gratitude
when he/sje saved me in battle, but one year hence I saved him/her
in another battle. Thus, my gratitude towards him/her is complete."
What do y'all think? How should the word {tlho'}? What of other
words - such as {Hoy'} ("to congratulate"), {QoS} ("to be sorry")
and {tlhIj} ("to apologize") - which Terrans have evolved rituals around?
**...to which one might respond {chotlho' net poQbe'} or {chotlho'
'e' vIpoQbe'}, but not {chotlho'nISbe'}. If I understand it
correctly, -nIS refers to a need on the part of the subject, not one
imposed by others.
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