tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Jan 01 12:43:09 2012

Back to archive top level

To this year's listing

[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next]

[Tlhingan-hol] {X net Y} vs. {X 'e' Y-lu'}

De'vID jonpIn ([email protected]) 

<p>WARNING: Speculation about grammar.  Avoid if that&#39;s not your {Dargh HIvje&#39;}.</p>
<p>Because MO uses both {X net Y} and {X &#39;e&#39; Y-lu&#39;} in Klingon Monopoly, and there aren&#39;t that many sentences, I&#39;m not convinced that the use of {X &#39;e&#39; Y-lu&#39;} is an error.</p>
<p>Here are the sentences from Klingon Monopoly of the form {X &#39;e&#39; Y-lu&#39;}:</p>
<p>{Qang QanmeH yan &#39;ISletlh Damuv &#39;e&#39; wIvlu&#39;.}<br>
&quot;You are chosen to serve on the Yan-Isleth and protect the Chancellor.&quot;</p>
<p>{DIvI&#39; rojmab qep ghanglu&#39; &#39;e&#39; nIDlu&#39;, &#39;ach taH qep.}<br>
&quot;Despite efforts to halt them, peace talks with Federation continue.&quot;</p>
<p>Here are the sentences from Klingon Monopoly of the form {X net Y}:</p>
<p>{Duj ghajchugh pagh, beylI&#39;vo&#39; &#39;oH Daje&#39; net chaw&#39;.}<br>
{HoSHal ghajchugh pagh, beylI&#39;vo&#39; &#39;oH Daje&#39; net chaw&#39;.}<br>
Both of these are translated as &quot;If unowned, you may buy it from the Bank.&quot;</p>
<p>In an earlier thread (&quot;Klingon Monopoly: another card&quot;), I speculated that {X net Y} and {X &#39;e&#39; Y-lu&#39;} have slightly different meanings.  Namely, {X net Y} implies no relationship between the indefinite subjects of the verbs {X} and {Y}, whereas {X &#39;e&#39; Y-lu&#39;} implies that the subject of {X} is the subject of {Y} (the object of {Y-lu&#39;}).  And in particular, {W-lu&#39; &#39;e&#39; Y-lu&#39;} implies that {W-lu&#39;} and {Y-lu&#39;} share the same indefinite subject.</p>

<p>That is, I think {Damuv &#39;e&#39; wIvlu&#39;} means &quot;you are chosen to join&quot; (similar to {Damuv; SoH DawIvlu&#39;}, whereas {Damuv net wIv} means &quot;it is chosen, you join&quot; (similar to {Damuv; &#39;oH wIvlu&#39;}).</p>

<p>By the same reasoning, I also think that {ghanglu&#39; &#39;e&#39; nIDlu&#39;} implies that the indefinite subject of both verbs are the same (i.e,. &quot;someone tried to end it prematurely, someone tried that someone -- the same person -- end it prematurely&quot;), whereas {ghanglu&#39; net nID} means &quot;it is tried that someone end it prematurely, someone tried that someone (possibly someone else) end it prematurely&quot;.  I think this is more clear in the two sentences from TKW p.125.</p>

<p>As for {Daje&#39; net chaw&#39;}, it needs to be {net} because the object of {chaw&#39;} is the action being permitted.  *{Daje&#39; &#39;e&#39; chaw&#39;lu&#39;} is like *{Daje&#39;; SoH chaw&#39;lu&#39;}, but this isn&#39;t how {chaw&#39;} works.</p>

<p>Does anyone else see this difference between the {X net Y} and {X &#39;e&#39; Y-lu&#39;} sentences, or am I imagining things?  Is my speculation contradicted by any canon?</p>
<p>--<br>
De&#39;vID</p>

_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
[email protected]
http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol

Back to archive top level