tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Nov 04 21:29:08 2011
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner Story: nuq bop bom 'ay''a' wej
<html><head></head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>As a person relatively new to Klingon, you don't understand what the -lu' suffix does to verb prefixes. To translate "One sees me," or "I am seen," the translation is {vIleghlu'}, not {*muleghlu'}. So, {luleghlu'} does not mean that an unspecified plural entity sees him/her/it. It means that an unspecified singular entity sees them. </div><div><br></div><div>Trust me on this. Look at TKD again in the section on {-lu'}. I remember arguing about this with HoD Qanqor nearly two decades ago. I was taking your side in this argument. I lost.</div><div><br></div><div>It was the beginning of my deepest plunge into learning the language. I hope you enjoy a similar plunge soon. </div><div><br></div><div>lojmIt tI'wI'nuv<br><br><div><br></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>Sent from my iPod</div><div><br>On Nov 4, 2011, at 6:54 AM, Wiechu <<a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div>That would actually justify use of { lu- } in { pa'Daq tlhInganpu' lutu'lu' } as prefix is referring to object in this particular case. And that means Qov didn't make error after all. However the example in TKD says { naDev puqpu' tu'lu' }. And as { puqpu' } which is an object of that sentence is plural, shouldn't there be { lu- } attached to { tu'lu' } ?</div>
<div><br></div><div>SanuQchugh jIQoS</div><div><br></div><div><span style="border-collapse: collapse; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); ">--<br>Sincerely,<br><br>Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)</span></div></div><div><br></div><div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class="im">> It depends on how you understand verb "are". In sentence<br>
> "There are Klingons in the room" I assumed (perhaps I'm<br>
> incorrect) that Klingons are the subject because "they are".<br>
<br>
</div>Ah, alright; I assumed you were referring to the Klingon sentence.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> However according to TKD {lu-} does not mark a plural,<br>
> third-person object. It marks plural, third-person subject<br>
> with singular, third-person subject. Am I right ?<br>
<br>
</div>Not when the -lu' suffix is applied; then it marks a generic/unknown/unspecified subject and a plural, third-person object.</blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<br>
I can recommend using the table on this page as a reference: <a href="http://www.klingonska.org/dict/tables.html"; target="_blank">www.klingonska.org/dict/tables.html</a><br>
<div class="im"><br>
--<br>
Sincerely,<br>
<br>
Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>2011/11/4 Felix Malmenbeck <<a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>>><br>
<div class="im">Just want to notify you that I believe you're mixing up the words "subject" and "object": The subject is that which does/is something, and the object is that to which something is done. The -lu' suffix marks an unknown/unspecified/general subject, and when used together with the lu- prefix marks a plural, third-person object.<br>
<br>
________________________________________<br>
</div>From: Wiechu [<a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>>]<br>
<div class="im">Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 07:45<br>
</div>To: <a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>><br>
<div class="im">Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner Story: nuq bop bom 'ay''a' wej<br>
<br>
Hi!<br>
<br>
I'm sorry if I'm wrong in any way. I'm the beginner who was asking about "lutu'lu'".<br>
<br>
In my opinion this error comes from treating tu'lu' as english "There is". So let's assume it is for a second. To say "there are people in the room", it's logical to add lu- at the beginning so the subject was plural as in this case the subject would be a person or persons who are in the room... However even in this case it isn't 100% correct to use lu- because there's no object in "there are klingons in the room" sentence, therefore there's no need to lu-, "0" instead should be used for <they> -> <none>. pa'Daq tlhInganpu' tu'lu' should be enough.<br>
<br>
Now if you look at the tu'lu' in the Klingon way (As explained in TKD), tu' means to observe, find. lu' means that there's indefinite subject and the object is a person / persons who are being observed.<br>
<br>
pa'Daq tlhInganpu' tu'lu' someone observes klingons in the room. If you add lu- at the beginnig, the subject is plural so more than one person is observing (what doesn't really change anything, besides the fact that there's more people who can confirm that klingons are in the room) but what's more important with lu- you change object to singular him/her/it. And you can't really use it with tlhInganpu' anymore because it's an error.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Sincerely,<br>
<br>
Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>2011/11/4 Robyn Stewart <<a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>><mailto:<a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>>>><br>
<div class="im">I think I've been convinced by the ubiquity of the so-called error, including the example illustrating the rule, that it is not an error, that it is the way the language it. It's exactly analogous to the French ce n'est pas being used were ce ne sont pas should be, and the same thing isn't unknown in English, "There's plenty of them around here." "There's five of them." "There's" is just easier to say than "There'r" I guess.<br>
<br>
You know how when Germans learn English [hi Germans!] they use rules that the two languages once shared and produce verb forms that while not actually ungrammatical in English are marked because no native English speaker has used them for over a hundred years? I am now convinced that lutu'lu' is a hypercorrection like that. I might even stop using it. At least in dialogue.<br>
<br>
<br>
We've discussed this in the past. There are a couple of possible explanations. One is that it's a fixed expression: just add tu'lu' to mean "there is/are." Another is that it's an example of the phenomenon described in KGT: "Common Errors: The Case of lu-."<br>
<br>
I have a vague notion that lutu'lu' has appeared somewhere, but it's not in TKD or KGT, the only materials I have handy and searchable right now.<br>
<br>
--<br>
SuStel<br>
<a href="http://www.trimboli.name/"; target="_blank">http://www.trimboli.name/</a><br>
<br>
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