tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Dec 27 01:17:27 2011
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Re: [Tlhingan-hol] {Hotlh} and {ghoS}
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To me the commonality between the two translations is that they might
both involve getting data to a screen. Either you _scan_ it from the real
world and then see the results on a tricorder or you project if from a
databank onto a screen. But they are often quite different actions. The
"if the enemy commander hails us" example is excellent and
could be bad if misunderstood, because scanning can be perceived as a
hostile act.<br><br>
It's a fair question and contributes to what makes me call Klingon a
"trapdoor code" : you can translate into it with a little
practice, but the skill is in writing so that the meaning can be hauled
back out. I pulled some sentences with Hotlh out of my story. (Not
that my story is definitive of anything. It's just 50,000 words of
Klingon in one searchable file and right in front of me).<br><br>
tamey Hotlhqa' vajar. ngaq Duj ta laDtaHvIS, pongDaj'e' tu'.<br><br>
The intended meaning here was more the from databanks one, clear because
it was established that he was looking at old computer records. laDqa'
might have made as much sense.<br><br>
bIghHa' Hung HotlhwI' ta nuDta' HoDvetlh.<br><br>
I suppose you could have a security projector. What might it
project?<br><br>
DI Hotlh HoD 'ej HaStaDaq wa' 'ay' tInmoH.<br><br>
This one shows the overlap. It doesn't matter whether you translate this
as project or scan. He kind of had to scan it in order to project it, and
the tInmoH makes it clear that something is on screen -- I hope.<br><br>
"yImev." jatlh HoD. "tlhInganpu' chaH.
yIHotlh."<br><br>
This one is only unambigious because the previous order from the captain
was "HaStaDaq."<br><br>
"wIHotlhlu'!" jatlh Hung yaS.<br><br>
"We have been projected" would only make sense in some bizarre
context, like Klingon nerds noticing that they are featured in a slide
show, and making a pun. There are a bunch of these, very
similar.<br><br>
rI'Se' leQ 'uy' yaS wa'DIch 'ej jatlh, "tlhIngan tlharghDuj *Dugh*
boHotlhta'. pengu'egh."<br><br>
Same, how would they know they had been projected?<br><br>
Gaa, I use this verb a lot. <br><br>
jatlh QeDpIn ?HaSta yIbej. poj Hotlh.?<br><br>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times">An analysis isn't something you scan,
so one expects it to be projected.<br><br>
</font>Som tI'ta'bogh yaS wa'DIch HotlhchoH.<br><br>
Now this one is interesting, because Hota'ro' is using a tricorder that
is rigged to immediately display everything she points it at on screen.
So "scan" and "project" are exactly the same for
her.<br><br>
raS DungDaq tIHmey Hotlhlu'taHmo' chenlaw' Duj ngeb.<br><br>
When I came back to proof this one, I read Hotlh as "scan" and
imagined the beams scanning instead of being constant, refreshing the
image faster that Klingon persistence of vision. When I first wrote it I
meant project, but hey, either way kind of works.<br><br>
So for the most part they are obvious because the other meaning makes no
sense, disambiguated from context, or the distinction is irrelevant.
<br><br>
I return to the "enemy commander" one because it's a difference
that could cost lives, but unfortunately that sort of thing happens in
real languages, too. There was a serious accident at an airport not
far from me because a vehicle operator was asked to "clear the
runway" in preparation for the arrival of a flight. What's the
problem? The vehicle was a snowplough and the operator entered the
runway to clear it instead of getting off the runway. And then
there's the classic "take off power" which can either be an
instruction to apply close to maximum engine power OR a command to reduce
power.<br><br>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times">If anyone has ever died or started an
unwanted war by scanning instead of projecting, Klingon captains probably
learn about that pitfall, the way I learned about "take off
power." <br><br>
At any rate project/scan isn't nearly as bad as ear/belt. I've started
referring to "head ear" and "pants ear" in ENGLISH
now.<br><br>
</font>- Qov<br><br>
<br>
At 17:30 26/12/2011, De'vID jonpIn wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">SuStel:<br>
> > I don't feel a strong link between scanning with a tricorder
and<br>
> > projecting something on a screen. Yes, you can put your scanned
data<br>
> > on a screen, but this doesn't seem to me a particularly strong
reason<br>
> > to assume the two words {Hotlh} are related. Maybe they are,
but there's<br>
> > not enough evidence to assume they are.<br><br>
I'm not saying they're related (etymologically or whatever), I'm saying
they're easily confused.<br><br>
SuStel:<br>
> > Hoqra'lIj yIlo'; Dep yIHotlh<br>
> > Scan the creature with your tricorder.<br><br>
Why isn't this "Project the creature onscreen using your tricorder
(i.e., project it onto the tricorder's screen)"?<br><br>
SuStel:<br>
> > nurI'chugh jaghla', yIHotlh<br>
> > If the enemy commander hails us, put him on screen.<br><br>
Why isn't this "If the enemy commander hails us, scan
him"?<br><br>
Voragh:<br>
[... re-arranging to put the two {yIHotlh} together...]<br>
> {Hotlh} project, put on (screen):<br>
><br>
> yIHotlh<br>
> Put him on the screen! TKD<br>
><br>
[... poD...]<br>
><br>
> {Hotlh} scan:<br>
><br>
> yIHotlh<br>
> Scan it! KGT<br><br>
So, there's no way to differentiate between "scan it" and
"put it on screen"?<br><br>
Voragh:<br>
> nuHotlhpu''a'<br>
> Have they scanned us? TKD<br><br>
Again, why isn't this "Have they projected us onscreen?"
(In this example, I agree that the provided translation is much more
likely though.)<br><br>
Voragh:<br>
> {HotlhwI'} scanner<br><br>
Why not a projector (device for projecting something on a
screen)?<br><br>
--<br>
De'vID<br>
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