tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Nov 26 16:08:55 2009

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Re: The topic marker -'e'

David Trimboli ([email protected]) [KLI Member] [Hol po'wI']

Christopher Doty wrote:
>> tlhIHvaD tIrqi' jaj Quch!!
> 
> 
> 
> 'oy' jay'! When transliterating, please at least mark the word somehow. 
> 
> It took me a moment to realize this meant "turkey," and any beginners 
> 
> reading your post may have spent several minutes scratching their heads, 
> 
> wondering what *{qi'} meant. :)
> 
> 
> 
> ME: Well, how does one mark this? Or is simply using the english word okay in these cases?

There is no official procedure here. It's just generally accepted that 
unmarked transliterations are undesirable. I usually just use the 
English word as a foreign word. If I have formatting options, I will 
italicize it.

> Â 
> --
> But yes, I agree that {-vaD} can be used in this sense, but not with 
> 
> this syntax, unless it's clipped in the way DloraH suggested. You 
> 
> haven't specified what {tlhIH} is the beneficiary of. It can't be 
> 
> {turkey jaj Quch}, because that's a noun phrase, and modifying the 
> 
> following noun phrase would be a noun-noun construction with a Type 5 
> 
> suffix on the genitive. (The same objection I've had all along.)
> 
> 
> 
> ME: But I have specified it. It is the recipient of a a happy turkey day.

But {-vaD} marks the beneficiary or recipient of the ACTION, not another 
noun. Your phrase had no action.

> I still take issue with saying that a noun with -vaD modifies following nouns. Based on what we know, I don't think this interpretation is ever correct.

I'm not saying that a noun with {-vaD} modifies following nouns. I'm 
saying exactly the opposite. It DOESN'T. It CAN'T. That would be an 
illegal noun-noun construction. A noun with {-vaD} modifies the VERB.

> Well-wishing and (espeically) toasts in Klingon actually follow special 
> 
> grammatical rules, first mentioned in Power Klingon and later explained 
> 
> in detail in Klingon for the Galactic Traveler. No matter what the 
> 
> sentence, the verb will have {-jaj} and it will always come last, even 
> 
> if this violates OVS order. So, as a toast:
> 
> 
> 
>     tlhIHvaD turkey jaj Quchjaj!
> 
>     May you have a happy turkey day!
> 
>     Happy turkey day!
> 
> 
> 
> ME: Okay, so I got the final jaj wrong, but this is otherwise just what I said...

Only by coincidence. You were using an adjectival {Quch}. I am using a 
fully verbal {Quch}. In my sentence, there is no noun phrase {jaj Quch}.


> In standard Klingon, if it weren't in the context of a toast or the 
> 
> like, the sentence would be
> 
> 
> 
>     tlhIHvaD Quchjaj turkey jaj!
> 
> 
> ME: I'm confused by this, but that might just be because of relatives and not anything about the sentence. I think my confusion is because something like this is always going to be a toast/well-wishing type thing, so this seems odd...

Yes, something like this will usually be a toast, so you'll usually see 
this with the toasting grammar. But you COULD mean it literally, or you 
could say something else with identical syntax which isn't a toast. 
{tlhIHvaD Quchjaj turkey jaj} means, literally, "May turkey day be happy 
for you." In your attempt, *{tlhIHvaD turkey jaj Quch}, there is no 
action in the utterance, so there's nothing for {tlhIHvaD} to relate to.

I believe the two situations in which the special grammar is known to be 
invoked are toasting and the Klingon coming of age ceremony.

-- 
SuStel
tlhIngan Hol MUSH
http://trimboli.name/mush

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