tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Nov 04 14:53:40 2009

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Re: Sentences as objects

ghunchu'wI' (qunchuy@alcaco.net)



On Nov 4, 2009, at 3:44 PM, Terrence Donnelly wrote:

>> jagh jeylu'. ghaHvaD 'e' vIQIj - The enemy is defeated. I  
>> explained that to
>> him. (I explained to him that the enemy was defeated)
>
> This isn't the same thing as your original {jagh jeylu' 'e' vIQIj}.

With the exception of the {ghaHvaD}, it looks the same to me.

> I'm not disputing that {QIj} can take an object, such as {Qagh} or  
> {'e'}. Heck, even {jatlh} can take an object: eg.,{SoQ vIjatlh}.  
> But Okrand clearly said that discourse before a verb of saying is  
> not the object of the verb and doesn't take {'e'}.

What discourse are you referring to?  Unless you're trying to  
interpret {jagh jeylu'} a direct quote, the concept of "verbs of  
saying" doesn't enter into it.

> "The enemy is defeated," I explained.
> I explained that the enemy has been defeated.
> The enemy is defeated. I explained this.
>
> The first example is direct discourse; the second is indirect  
> discourse. In Klingon, there appears to be no distinction between  
> the two forms, and according to Okrand, one would not use {'e'}.   
> The third sentence is closest to your example above, but this isn't  
> really reported speech anymore, just two statements.

Oh, you *are* trying to interpret {jagh jeylu'} as a direct quote!

My simple, direct, straightforward response: don't do that.

>> I wouldn't see {QIj} as a verb of saying since, as Voragh pointed  
>> out, you
>> don't have to speak to explain something.
>
> I'd love to see an example of this, because I'm having a very hard  
> time envisioning a situation in which a speech act can be delivered  
> without speaking, or something equivalent to speaking; since Okrand  
> never really clarified what a verb of saying is, maybe we can look  
> at it from the other direction: any verb used with an example of  
> reported speech is a verb of "saying", in other words, reported  
> speech is always accompanied by a verb with no object, if it is  
> reporting on that speech.

In {jagh jeylu' 'e' vIQIj}, {jagh jeylu'} isn't a "speech act".  Any  
hypothetical example of its being one would be irrelevant.

-- ghunchu'wI'






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