tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Nov 29 11:54:21 2007
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Re: Basic grammar question
Qang qu'wI' wrote:
>Inspired by Doq's post, I've played around with a {tlho'meH jaj lutHom} of
>my own. In the process, something has caused me to puzzle a little:
>I wrote {maleng QorDu'wIj jIH je}.
"My family and I, we travel" = "My family and I travel"
This is exactly how I would say it.
>But it seems that the {ma-} should imply {jIH} as part of the subject.
I'm not following you. "We" implies implies the speaker and at least one
other person in every language so far as I know.
>{maleng QorDu'wIj} seems odd, but that may be a result of thinking in the
>DIvI' Hol interpretation, perhaps it's not odd in tlhIngan Hol.
>
>Also, perhaps {maleng QorDu'maj} would work in tlhIngan Hol even though it
>seems (a little) odd in DIvI' Hol.
Good question. I don't know if it would be understood as you intend or if
it would just sound as if you left off the second part of the joint subject
or were interrupted: {maleng qorDu'wIj...}
AFAIK "My family travels" can only be {leng qorDu'wIj}.
BTW note that "family" is spelled with a lower case /q/ - {qorDu'}.
>I would be interested to know if there is some strong evidence from MO for
>any of these, and if not, how they would be taken by any {tlhIngan Hol
>jatlhwI'} who would care to offer an opinion.
There is only one example of {ma-} "we [do something]" used with an
explicitly stated subject:
notlh veS... 'a tugh manotlhchoH je maH.
War is obsolete... as we are in danger of becoming. ST6
one example with {wI-} "we [do something to] him/her/it":
'ach HoD, Hevetlh wIghoSchugh veH tIn wI'el maH'e'!
But Captain, that course will take *us* into the Barrier as well. ST5
and no examples with {DI-} "we [do something to] them"
There is however an example of an explicitly stated joint subject with
{lu-}, which is also our evidence for how Klingon handles apposition:
DuraS tuq tlhIngan yejquv patlh luDub 'e' reH lunIDtaH DuraS
be'nI'pu' lurSa' be'etor je.
The sisters of the House of Duras, Lursa and B'Etor, are constantly
seeking a higher standing for the House of Duras within the Klingon
High Council. S2
If {maleng qorDu'wIj jIH je} gives you pause, you can always restate it by
repeating the verb:
leng QorDu'wIj; jIleng jIH je
my family travelled; I travelled too
This does not sound as redundant in Klingon as it does in English. (We've
seen this repeating of a verb or noun several times in Klingon where
English would omit it.) A more idiomatic rephrase would be to use {tlhej}
"accompany": I travelled with (accompanied by) my family. Okrand has
discussed how to translate "with" on the old startrek.klingon newsgroups:
From: Marc Okrand <...>
Newsgroups: startrek.klingon
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999
Subject: Re: ghew qab
Qermaq wrote:
>> Is there a way to say "with" in Klingon? Such as, "He went with them."
>> Or does it have to be expressed like this (jaH chaH. jaH je ghaH.)?
>
> tlheD chaH. tlhej ghaH.
Qermaq's suggestion to use the verb tlhej "accompany" as a way to get
across the notion of "with" in the sentence meaning "he went with them"
is exactly right.
Its use is not restricted to the notion of going someplace ("accompany"
in the sense of "go with"). It is fine to say such things as {'Iw HIq
vItlhutlh. mutlhej ghaH.} "He/she drinks bloodwine with me," literally
"I drink bloodwine. He/she accompanies me".
and again in HolQeD 2.4:
In the sense of "accompanied by, with" is usually translated by a
phrase employing the verb {tlhej, "accompany"... Thus, "I drink
tea with Torg and Maltz" would be: {Dargh vItlhutlhDI' mutlhej
torgh matlh je.} (Literally, "When I drink tea, Torg and Maltz
accompany me.") or {Dargh vItlhutlh. mutlhej torgh matlh je.}
("I drink tea. Torg and Maltz accompany me.") or {Dargh vItlhutlh
'ej mutlhej torgh matlh je.} ("I drink tea, and Torg and Maltz
accompany me.")
More examples:
tach vI'el, HItlhej
Let's go to the pub. RT
QotDI' gheD tlhejbe' wamwI'
The hunter does not lie down with the prey.
bIQongtaHvIS nItlhejchugh targhmey bIvemDI' nItlhej ghIlab ghewmey
If you sleep with targs, you'll wake up with glob flies. TKW
So putting it all together:
My family and I travelled to the First City for Thanksgiving.
tlho'meH jaj lopmeH, veng wa'DIch leng qorDu'wIj; vItlhej jIH.
"My family travelled to the First City for Thanksgiving; I accompanied
them."
tlho'meH jaj vIlopmeH, veng wa'DIch vIleng; mutlhej qorDu'wIj.
"I travelled to the First City for Thanksgiving; my family accompanied me."
You might be able to say {tlho'meH jaj wIlopmeH} "in order for US to
celebrate it", using {wI-} to anticipate all the subjects of the rest of
the sentence. But that's the subject for another thread.
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons