tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Feb 28 12:28:04 2007
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Re: Topic (was: Re: Dilbert Comic in Klingon for February 9, 2007
mIq'ey:
> >> qatoy'taH wa'ben 'e' vItagh
> >>
> >>This seems (to me) to mean exactly what we want it to mean. Are there
> >>objections to it from a grammatical (or, for that matter, any other) point
> >>of view?
Voragh:
> > I like this, but the time-stamp should precede the verb:
> > wa' ben qatoy'taH 'e' vItagh.
> > "I began serving you (continuously) a year ago"
lay'tel SIvten:
>I disagree with your change (although the result may still have roughly the
>same meaning). The time-stamp already precedes its verb, but the first
>clause is separate and does not require a time-stamp.
>Adding a period (full stop) makes it easier to see:
> qatoy'taH. wa'ben 'e' vItagh.
Voragh:
>>So it's the difference between "A year ago I began serving you" and "I
>>began serving you a year ago"? Depending on the intonation (and context),
>>"a year ago" is emphasized but they are otherwise identical in meaning.
mIq'ey:
>I was going to compose a longish response to this, but this should suffice:
>
> qatoy'taH wa'ben 'e' vItagh -- wa'ben unambiguously modifies vItagh
>
> wa'ben qatoy'taH 'e' vItagh -- wa'ben may modify either verb: is it
> {(wa'ben qatoy'taH) 'e' vItagh}, or {wa'ben (qatoy'taH) 'e' vItagh}? I
> wasn't aware that the latter interpretation was even legal (i.e., that
> you could embed the object sentence inside the main clause), but even if
> it is, the sentence remains ambiguous.
>
>Since the intent is to have the adverbial phrase modify {vItagh}, IMHO the
>unambiguous formulation is preferable. (BTW, I think your English example
>is not really comparable. If you ask a representative sample of English
>speakers what verb is modified by the phrase "a year ago" in the sentence
>"I began serving you a year ago", I'll bet close to 100% will say "began".)
I agree, though whether "a year ago" modifies "begin" or "serve" is a
trivial distinction: Both occur at the same instant.
Either way, using {tagh} "begin a process, initiate" as an helping verb in
a SAO formula is grammatically possible but completely un-Klingon. There
are three examples of {tagh}: one with a noun as subject, one with a noun
as object, and one used by itself:
taghbej mu'qaD veS
Curse-warfare has definitely begun. PK
Qu' DataghDI' 'aqtu' mellota' je yIqaw
When you begin a mission, remember Aktuh and Mellota. TKW
DaH petagh!
[Begin now! (untranslated)] (ENT "Affliction")
The preferred method for "begin to VERB" is to use the Type 3 suffix
{-choH} "change in state/direction":
Suffixes of this type indicate that the action described by the verb
involves
a change of some kind from the state of affairs that existed before the
action
took place.
maDo'choH
we are becoming lucky. we are undergoing a turn of luck.
ghoSchoH
he is beginning to go (somewhere)
The implication of the second example is that he or she was going either
nowhere
or somewhere else sometime before the phrase was uttered. Note that the
trans-
lation of this suffix may be English "become" or "begin to." (TKD 37)
There is a separate verb {moj} for Okrand's other gloss "become" which
works the same way. It is never used as an helping verb in an SAO:
yaS vImojpu'
I became an officer.
yaS DImojpu'
We became officers. TKD
DIHIvbe'ch[ugh] qo'chajDaq toy'wI''a' DImoj
Attack or be slaves in their world. ST6
bogh tlhInganpu', SuvwI'pu' moj, Hegh
Klingons are born, live as warriors, then die.
wa' jaj 'etlh 'uchchoHlaH tlhIngan puqloD; jajvetlh loD nen moj
The son of a Klingon is a man the day he can first hold a blade. TKW
yejquv DevwI' moj ghawran 'e' wuqta' cho' 'oDwI' Dapu'bogh janluq pIqarD
HoD
Gowron... named leader of the High Council by Captain Jean-Luc Picard, who
was acting as Arbiter of Succession. S25
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons