tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Feb 27 05:32:25 2007
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Re: Topic (was: Re: Dilbert Comic in Klingon for February 9, 2007
- From: "QeS 'utlh" <[email protected]>
- Subject: Re: Topic (was: Re: Dilbert Comic in Klingon for February 9, 2007
- Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:31:02 +1000
- Bcc:
ghItlhpu' 'ISqu', ja':
> {qaStaHvIS wa' DIS qatoy'taH} or
> {qatoy'taH qaStaHvIS wa' DIS}
jang Doq, ja':
>That doesn't mean "I have served you for the past year." It means "I am
>serving you for a year." Maybe last year. Maybe next year. Maybe we're in
>the middle of the year. Maybe it happened a decade ago. Maybe it will
>happen a decade from now. I repeat the requested translation: "I have
>served you for the past year."
I agree with ghunchu'wI'. You're asking for an overly specific translation
of a tense-form in a language that simply isn't built to express tense. You
might as well ask a Russian-speaker for "I ate the apple" as opposed to "I
ate an apple"; because Russian lacks articles, any result that makes the
same semantic distinction will be awkward, forced, and unnatural in Russian,
or will require some sort of context (if it's even possible at all). All
languages enhance meaning by means of contextual cues, and asking for a
phrase in isolation that has the meaning you require may not be possible
without those contextual clues. The syllable "la" in Ubykh has six distinct
noun meanings: "army", "hare", "intestines", "deception", "painting" and
"passing of time". If you're given the word "la" in isolation, how can you
reasonably expect to translate it accurately?
ja'taH:
>So, show a conversation where that kind of shared knowledge or context
>would apply. Show a concrete example instead of a vague, abstract
>suggestion.
Kang is a general who is considering promoting Kor to the rank of commander.
Kor is an ensign. They are conversing on the bridge.
qeng: qor, qaStaHvIS 'ar DIS chotoytaH?
qor: qaStaHvIS wa' DIS qatoytaH, ra'wI'.
qeng: qaSpu'DI' wa' latlh DIS, batlh bItoytaHqu'chugh, qanummoHbej.
You could have come up with a similar scenario yourself. Please don't
respond to suggestions by making challenges of "you do it first, I don't
believe you". It's not fruitful.
ja'taH 'ISqu':
> wa'ben qatoy'choH 'ej qaStaHvIS wa' DIS qatoy'taH.
jangtaH Doq:
>That's the kind of awkward work-around I was trying to avoid.
"I began serving you a year ago and for one year I continue to serve you." I
see no problem. Remember that Klingon often splits up what would be a single
English sentence into two sentences. And the lack of a Klingon equivalent
for the English preposition "for" (which really means "during" here, which
is usually translated as {qaStaHvIS}) is only to be expected, since Klingon
doesn't have the range of prepositions that English does anyway.
>If it really is the best that any expert here can manage, I guess it's what
>we are stuck with.
"Stuck with" is a poor choice of words. I have no problem with 'ISqu''s
suggestion, and don't find it awkward at all.
>Someone should point this out to Okrand. I doubt he'd be satisfied with it
>once it came to his notice.
Really? I quote from an interview with Okrand about translating the Skybox
cards into Klingon:
"What I find myself doing a lot, especially with these Skybox things... The
English is these long, long complicated sentences, and I said, 'no way,' I'd
take this long sentence and split it up into two or three. So they went and
counted the periods, and said 'wait a minute, we gave you two sentences,
you're giving us back six, what's going on here?'" (HolQeD 4.2, pages 5-6)
Apparently Okrand has no problem with using two main clauses where English
would only use one. I'd say that 'ISqu''s suggestion not only fits with all
the canon we have, but also fits with the way that Okrand himself may have
done it.
QeS 'utlh
tlhIngan Hol yejHaD pabpo' / Grammarian of the Klingon Language Institute
not nItoj Hemey ngo' juppu' ngo' je
(Old roads and old friends will never deceive you)
- Ubykh Hol vIttlhegh
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