tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Feb 25 11:13:44 2007

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Re: Topic (was: Re: Dilbert Comic in Klingon for February 9, 2007)

Agnieszka Solska ([email protected]) [KLI Member] [Hol po'wI']

ja' Doq:

:Has anyone noticed that we tend to use {qaStaHvIS wa'ben}
:to mean  "While last year happened",

I certainly haven't noticed any such tendency. In fact,
I don't think anyone has ever used {wa'ben} as the subject
of a clause.

:My point is, if we pretend that we are talking about
:the entire span  of a year with {qaStaHvIS}, which we made up
:without any canon or  approval from Okrand,

But {qaStaHvIS} *is* Okrandian canon:


   qaStaHvIS wa' ram loS SaD Hugh SIjlaH
   qetbogh loD.
   "Four thousand throats may be cut in one night
    by a running man."
   [TKW: 127]

   qaStaHvIS wej puq poHmey vav puqloDpu'
   puqloDpu'chaj je quvHa'moH vav quvHa'ghach.
   "The dishonor of the father dishonors his
    sons and their sons for three generations."
   [TKW: 155]

   qaStaHvIS wa'maH puq poHmey, wo'rIv batleH ghaj
   qorDu'Daj.
   "Worf's bat'telh has been in his family for ten
   generations. "
   [SBX: 8]

:then why not use the {qIbDaq SuvwI''e' SoH Dun
:law' Hoch Dun puS} canon example to express the idea that
:using {'e'}  as topic and not focus, it can set the boundaries
:for an otherwise  infinite statement so that {wa'ben'e' qatoy'taH}
:would generally be  interpreted as "I have served you for the
:past year."?

Sentence {qIbDaq SuvwI''e' SoH Dun  law' Hoch Dun puS}
literally means: "In the galaxy, as for warriors, you are
the greatest." Somehow this example leads you to believe that
{wa'ben'e'}, literally "as for a year ago", would "generally be
interpreted" as "for the last year". I am skeptical if this is
indeed the "general" understanding of this phrase but until
other proficient speakers of Klingon present their opinions
I have no way of knowing if my skepticism is justified.

:Please point out why the use of {-'e'} is inferior to
:the use of  {qaStaHvIS},

I never said the use of {-'e'} is inferior to the use of
{qaStaHvIS}. These two grammatical devices simply perform
different roles.

:I'm using the term as a noun instead of as a time
:stamp.
:
:I strongly suspect that this is what Okrand meant with his
:definition  for {ben}.

In fact, he gave two definitions for {ben}:

1. "years ago" (TKD, p.80)
2. "years old" (KGT, p. 211)

:Witness the term for hundred-year-old wine.

The example is:

   {cha'vatlh ben HIq vItlhutlh.}
   I will drink two century old ale."
   [PK]

:He's not referring to wine that was made and drunk a century ago.

Well, it would be kind of silly to go to a bar and order wine that
has already been drunk...

:He's talking about wine that has been around for a hundred years.

or the wine (ale) that has been around for two hundred years because
it is two hundred "years old", i.e. was produced two hundred years ago.

:Does anyone else think this makes sense? Do you see a
:difference  between {ben} as a time stamp vs. {ben} as a noun?

As I see it, the term "noun" describes the lexical category of a word.
The term "time stamp" describes the word's position/function in
a sentence. Obviously, the same noun can assume different
positions and functions in different sentences.

- {jajvetlh} used as subject:

   Dun jajvetlh.
   "That day was wonderful."

- {jajvetlh} used as object:

   not jajvetlh vIlIj.
   "I will never forget/I never forgot that day."

- {jajvetlh} used in a noun-noun construction:

   jajvetlh Qu' ta'be'lu'.
   "That day's mission was not accomplished."

- {jajvetlh} used in a a time stamp:

   (wa' jaj 'etlh 'uchchoHlaH tlhIngan puqloD)
   jajvetlh loD nen moj. (TKW, 177)
   "(...) That day he becomes a man."

:You put {-'e'} on nouns. You don't put them on time stamps. If you
:put them on a word that could be interpreted as a time stamp, I don't
:think it is a stretch to expect that word to be used as a noun,
:rather than as a time stamp. That's the root of my interest in using
:{-'e'} to bound time words that relate to "now", like {ben, leS,
:Hu',} etc..

So far, you are the only person who has used {-'e'} on a timestamp in order 
to make it function as something other than a timestamp. An interesting 
experiment.

'ISqu'

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