tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Dec 10 15:43:56 2007

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Re: usage of type-7 aspect suffix {-pu}

David Trimboli ( [KLI Member] [Hol po'wI']

Alan Anderson wrote:
> ja' SuStel:
>> There are certain people, for another instance, who would insist that
>> the sentence *{bIpuj 'e' vItobta'} is a perfectly valid way to say "I
>> have proven that you are weak." Perfectly valid, they would claim,
>> because, despite the explicit rule in TKD against putting a Type 7  
>> verb
>> suffix on the first verb in a sentence-as-object constructions, it
>> "makes sense" and "should be allowed." But this just isn't so.
> Maybe it is allowed in certain dialects.
> Skybox card S26, {lurSa' be'etor je} "Lursa and B'Etor":
> {DuraS tuq tlhIngan yejquv patlh luDub 'e' reH lunIDtaH DuraS  
> be'nI'pu' lurSa' be'etor je.}
> "The sisters of Duras, Lursa™ and B'Etor™ are constantly seeking a  
> higher standing for the house of Duras within the Klingon™ High  
> Council."
> Note {...luDub 'e' reH lunIDtaH...}.

And maybe that's just an error. Kinda hard to say.

>> The correct sentence is {bIpujta' 'e' vItob}.
> How is that "the" correct sentence?  "I prove that you have been  
> weak."  That's not at all the same thing. It also places an aspect  
> suffix onto a verb of quality, keeping open the contentious issue I  
> thought we had moved beyond.

Okay, I take that back. Looking carefully at TKD 6.2.5, I see that Type 
7 suffixes don't "migrate" from second to first verb; they simply can't 
appear on the second verb. I got tripped up where Okrand talks about the 
first verb providing the tense of the translation.

However, as for "moving beyond," I never signed your Moving Beyond 
contract. Really, you keep telling us how this or that rule works or 
doesn't work because it's part of *your* internalized grammar. This is, 
frankly, a little upsetting. What makes *your* internalized grammar 
better than anyone's else's? I see *{maleng qorDu'} and I cringe.

> I suggest that {bIpuj 'e' vItob rIntaH} is a more faithful  
> translation of "I have proven that you are weak."

Only if you mean "It's proven once and for all," which isn't what I 
said. And it only works for {-ta'}.

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