tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Apr 24 16:19:18 2006

Back to archive top level

To this year's listing

[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next]

Re: par' vs. muS?

Shane MiQogh ([email protected]) 

Steven Boozer <[email protected]> wrote:  Shane MiQogh:
>>The real question would be, which meaning of love would one
>>see correct for muSHa'?

QeS:
>Okrand has said that {muS}'s meaning is probably stronger than {par}, but
>implies that their basic sense may be comparable, differing more in degree
>than in quality:
>
> "Interestingly (and bolstering the idea that "dislike" is a default),
> there's also the word {muS} "hate" (which is presumably stronger somehow
> than {par} "dislike")." (Okrand to alt.startrek.klingon, 2 Mar 1998)

Here's Okrand's entire post, which is relevant:

------------------------------------------
From: Marc Okrand
Newsgroups: startrek.klingon
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998
Subject: Re: -be', -Ha'

David Trimboli [SuStel] wrote ...
>Qermaq wrote ...
>(Note: disliking and being dishonest may equate with positive terms in
>Klingon, thus their being "defaults.")

Learning about Klingon character or mindset by way of studying what Qermaq
terms "defaults" in vocabulary will probably lead to interesting insights.
I think both Qermaq and SuStel are on the right track: {par} "dislike," for
example, is probably the more neutral or expected reaction of a Klingon to
someone else; {parHa'} "like" (or, more revealingly, "not dislike" or
"undislike" or "misdislike" or even "disdislike" [?!], since it's made up
of {par} "dislike" plus {-Ha'}, the negative suffix implying that something
is undone or done wrongly) is a modification (an undoing?) of this expected
reaction.

It may be that not everything has a default. Note, for example, {QuchHa'}
"be unhappy" and {'IQ} "be sad." These two words don't mean quite the same
thing: {QuchHa'} is made up of {Quch} "be happy" plus the negative suffix
{-Ha'}, suggesting a change from being happy to not being happy. {'IQ}} does
not have this connotation, nor does {Quchbe'} "be not happy" (or, if you
prefer, "not be happy"). Nevertheless, is the default in this pair {Quch}
"be happy" or is it {'IQ} "be sad"?

On the other hand, when the only way to express a certain idea is by
modifying a word (for example, by adding a suffix) rather than using an
entirely different word, perhaps one can argue that the nonmodified word is
the default. Thus, the only (known) way to express the opposite of {par}
"dislike" is by adding a negative suffix to {par}. Unlike {QuchHa'} "be
unhappy" and {'IQ} "be sad," there's no choice when it comes to "like";
you've got to use a word based on {par}: {parHa'}. It appears that the
only kind of "like" there is is the "undoing" or "misapplication" of
"dislike." (Of course, you could also say {parbe'} "like" or, more
literally, "not dislike," using the negative suffix {-be'} "not"; but
{parbe'} is also based on {par}. {parHa'} is heard more frequently than
{parbe'}, however, and this may be a hint at the usual way a Klingon looks
at things.)

Interestingly (and bolstering the idea that "dislike" is a default),
there's also the word {muS} "hate" (which is presumably stronger somehow
than {par} "dislike"). It also has no known opposite except for the
suffixed forms: {muSHa'} "dis-hate" or "unhate"; {muSbe'} "not hate."
------------------------------------------

>As such, I would probably use {muSHa'} in something like {qagh vImuSHa'} "I
>love gagh" or "I really like gagh". Or, in view of Okrand's comments on
>{QuchHa'} in that same posting, even "I used not to like gagh, but have come
>to love it".

Shane MiQogh:
>>Now you have me curious if "qaparHa' " would be inappropriate in your 
>>terms. lol That would be a little over board considering if you "like 
>>some one" so to speak, you literally like their presence...


{muS} "hate, detest" in canon:

ghotvam Ho'lu'. 'ej muSlu'
A man to admire? and hate. (ST5 notes)

romuluS HI' vImuS
I detest the Romulan dictator. KGT

romuluS HIq vImuS
I detest Romulan ale. KGT

qamuS
I hate you. KLS

*{muSHa'} has never been used by Okrand.

{par} "dislike" and {parHa'} "like" - no examples in canon.

But we're not limited to these two. We have {bel} "be pleased" and 
{belHa'} "be displeased" - unfortunately no examples in canon when 
describing likes and dislikes. Cf. also {belmoH} "please (someone)" :

qabelmoH'a'
Do I please you? PK
(i.e. "Do you like me?" - sexual context)

{maS} "prefer":

jar DamaSqu'bogh yIngu'
What/Which is your favorite month?
("Identify the month that you very much prefer!")

If you want to highlight the notion of "most prefer," you can
use the emphatic suffix {-qu'}: {jar DamaSqu'} "you very much
prefer the month. (st.klingon)

and also {tIv} "enjoy":

vaj DatIvba'
Then you're obviously enjoying it. CK

Ha'DIbaHmey meQ Sop 'e' tIv tera'nganpu'
Terrans enjoy eating burnt animals. CK
[sic! for {'e' *lu*tIv tera'nganpu'}]

may' ngeb tIv Hoch
Everyone enjoys a mock battle. CK

ghob tIvnISbe'lu'
One need not enjoy virtue. TKW

bIQapqu'meH tar DaSop 'e' DatIvnIS
To really succeed, you must enjoy eating poison. TKW

QoQ tIv
He/she enjoys [the] music. KGT

bom tIv
He/she enjoys the song. KGT

yIntaHbogh tlhIngan Soj tlhol jablu'DI' tIvqu'lu'
Klingon food is best when served fresh and live. S21

quwargh tach Qe' je qoDDaq Hov leng Soj DatIv
Enjoy Star Trek themed food and drink at Quark's Bar and Restaurant. STX

petIv'egh
Enjoy yourselves. (ST5 notes)

qep'a' wejDIchDaq jatlhtaH tlhIngan Hol HaDwI'pu'. ghoHtaH je. 
tIv'eghtaH je.
[untranslated] (st.klingon, Okrand to SuStel 11/96)

And, of course, there are the slang expressions {DuQ} and {'ey}, at least 
WRT food and music:

Another common way to say that a specific piece or performance of
music has a particularly strong effect on a listener is to employ
the verb {DuQ} (literally, "stab"): {muDuQ bom} ("The song stabs me",
or, in a more colloquial Federation Standard form, "The song moves me").
If the music is judged positively--that is, if the listener likes it--
the music is said to be {'ey}, using the word normally translated as
"delicious" when talking about food. Rendering {'ey bom} as "The song
is good" is acceptable, but it fails to capture the real feeling of
the Klingon. (KGT 71-72)

Food also resembles music in that if it affects one in an especially
positive way--that is, if the food particularly satisfies the eater--
one may say {DuQ Soj} ("The food stabs him/her"). (KGT 84)



--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons




So in other words, wether par/parHa' could be used in this situation is yet to be defined and no one can say it can or can't be used in this manor? I'd prefer to allow "par" to be used in this manor, since it appears that it is the only short and direct way to imply a more "innocent" idea such as "I like your presence" without taking the time to say "bISum vItIv." Things like "I like you" and "i hate you" and "i don't care" are phrases that are ment to said quickly and as short as possible. I don't know why, but it always *MUST* have a quick way to say it... well, it just seems that way to me from what i've seen... and choDuQ might be taken offencivly as well... lol A way to say "i love him/her" though in certain cases are stressed to have stronger meannig with a more lengthy phrase. in this case "belmey HoS vIghaj ghaHvaD" would work as well. And that work more for a child such a small age. I don't think you want to say a 2 or 3 year old child (or younger even) pleases you
 sexually. lol And a nice phrase comes to mind "puqloDwI', qaparHa'qu'." I know some of you will sugest using batlh instead, but i'm sure a klingon could love without having honor for. of course one could also use SaH in this case as well. Infact, that would probably deliver the "true meaning of love".  Personally i think it would be wise to use parHa' in this case aswell and give par the double meaning that seems to be present with that word in a few languages. Now before anyone starts, there's nothing wrong with more than 1 way to say something, it's just a matter of weather it'd be understood not if there's an "easier" or "more direct" way of saying it.
		
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger?s low  PC-to-Phone call rates.

Back to archive top level