tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Jun 24 11:57:55 2005
[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next]
Re: Correct/canon usage of numbers
Voragh:
> > To add to the confusion, the "naked number-forming element" can occur=
as a
> > morpheme in nouns: {vatlhvI'} "percent" leading some to speculate on
> > possible forms like *{maHvI'} "a tenth" or even *{loSvI'} "a fourth, =
a
> > quarter". Okrand, though, specifically rejected this when translatin=
g a
> > line from ST5, opting for the more precise percentage instead:
> >
> > cha'maHvagh vatlhvI' Hong, QIt yIghoS.
> > Slow to one quarter impulse power.
lay'tel SIvten:
>Are you sure he was "specifically rejecting" the use of *{loSvI'}, or ju=
st
>opting for the more precise percentage? Maybe {loSvI'} is also correct,=
but
>not as likely in this context. If he had used {loSvI'}, would that mean=
he
>was specifically rejecting {cha'maHvagh vatlhvI'}?
>
>When there is a choice, factors other than grammaticality may come into =
play.
What I meant was that the script provided him no doubt read "one quarter"=
-=20
the subtitles do, and they're generally taken directly from the shooting=20
script - but for some reason Okrand decided, for whatever reason, not to=20
translate is as a fraction but rephrase it instead as "twenty five percen=
t"=20
- which he could already say - he knew {vatlhvI'} "percent" from the=20
earlier ST3 vocabulary and he'd already created the number system - and=20
neatly avoid having to work out how Klingons deal with fractions. (BTW,=20
{vI'} "decimal point" will later appear in SkyBox S33, KGT and the BOP=20
poster.)
I wonder if this was yet another last minute script change, which he had =
to=20
translate quickly without taking the time to check his notes or create ne=
w=20
grammar. We know that a similar last minute change was the origin of the=
=20
(in)famous {taH pagh taHbe'} translation of "To be or not to be" in=20
ST6. He had already translated the line as {yIn pagh yInbe'}, but actor=20
Christopher Plummer didn't feel it sounded "Klingon enough," so Okrand=20
quickly changed it to {taH} with a nice, gutteral /H/ to complement=20
/gh/. Okrand later made an indirect reference to this incident in KGT (p=
.194):
There is a story, perhaps apocryphal, of a non-Klingon actor who
attempted to play the lead in the original Klingon version of
Shakespeare's Hamlet but was shouted off the stage when he began
the famous soliloquy by saying, {taQ pagh taQbe'} ("To be weird
or not to be weird"), rather than the correct {taH pagh taHbe'}
("To be or not to be"; literally, "[one] continues or [one] does
not continue").
Just speculating now... For all we know, fractions may go back to the=20
traditional ternary system (one, two, three) which Okrand mentioned in=20
passing in TKD (p.52-3):
Klingon originally had a ternary number system; that is, one
based on three. Counting proceeded as follows: 1, 2, 3; 3+1,
3+2, 3+3; 2=D73+1, 2=D73+2, 2=D73+3; 3=D73+1, 3=D73+2, 3=D73+3; and th=
en
it got complicated. In accordance with the more accepted
practice, the Klingon Empire sometime back adopted a decimal
number system, one based on ten. Though no one knows for sure,
it is likely that this change was made more out of concern for
understanding the scientific data of other civilizations than
out of a spirit of cooperation. [TKD pp. 52-53
He came back to this ternary idea when creating the three Klingon cardina=
l=20
directions ({tIng}, {'ev} and {chan}) as well as their nonatonic musical=20
scale. Cf. KGT (p.72f.):
The independent words for the numbers three through nine were not
originally a part of the Klingon counting system, but they had to
come from somewhere. The musical scale is the likely source. The
word for the fourth musical tone, {loS}, began to be used for the
number four, and so on through the eighth tone, {chorgh}.
If this is so, then there may well be separate words for the common=20
fractions "one third" and "two thirds" completely unrelated either to the=
=20
words for "one", "two" or "three" or even each other. Klingon - and many=
=20
Terran languages - do this with half {bID}, which has no relation to the=20
word for two {cha'}.
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons