tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Jun 22 12:40:45 2005
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Re: Correct/canon usage of numbers
Voragh:
> > This last form is, in fact, heard in ST6 during Chang's opening statement
> > in Kirk's trial:
> >
> > Qo'noS wa'Daq baHta' ['entepray']
> > "Enterprise fired on Kronos One..."
>
>But you are right, it's still the question how one explains it, as you
>quoted SuStel:
>
> "Now,it could be considered just a [proper] name, but it may also
> be possible that noun suffixes can go to the ordinal number."
>
>TKD "numbers are used as nouns"
"Used as nouns" (i.e. used in places you can use a noun) doesn't mean the
same as "behave as nouns" (i.e. able to take noun suffixes). Here are some
examples of what I mean (note that none carry noun suffixes):
maDo'chugh QeHchoH wa'.
If we're lucky, one will get angry. CK
{wa'} is being used as a subject noun.
wa' yIHoH.
Kill one of them. ST3
{wa'} is being used as an object noun.
wa' ghaH tera'ngan'e'.
One is a Terran. (ST5 notes)
{wa'} is being used as a predicate noun following a pronoun-as-verb.
FWIW, Okrand says the same thing ("used as nouns") about pronouns:
Pronouns may be used as nouns, but only for emphasis or added
clarity. (TKD 52)
Okrand communicated privately with members of the KSRP that pronouns
(being a subset of nouns) could indeed be used with stative verbs.
Thus, {SoH po' law' jIH po' puS} is correct. (HQ 4.2:3)
Since pronouns are a subset of nouns - i.e. a specialized group of nouns -
they can carry the same suffixes as other nouns:
SoHvaD 'uQ wej vIqem.
I'll bring you dinner number three. CK
chaq SoHvo' vay' vIje' vIneH.
[Maybe I'd like to buy something from you.] PK
DaH jIHvaD yIngev!
Sell it to me now! PK
tuQtaHvIS Hem. ghaHvaD quHDaj qawmoH.
He wears it proudly as a reminder of his heritage. S20
SoHDaq qeylIS qa' yInjaj!
May the spirit of Kahless live within you! PK
jIHDaq Sum raS.
The table is near me. (HQ 12/1998)
lujpu' jIH'e'.
I, and only I, have failed. TKD
Whether this applies to numbers is still the question. I don't have a copy
of TKD with me; does Okrand ever say that numbers "are nouns" or are "a
subset of nouns"?
>How would one translate "I wait because of the first guest"
> {mebmo' wa'DIch jIloS}
> or ?
> {meb wa'DIchmo' jIloS}
>
>What about numbers without afixes? "I wait because of guest number one"
> {mebmo' wa' jIloS}
> or ?
> {meb wa'mo' jIloS}
Good questions. We do have examples of (number) (noun+suffix) phrases:
wa' Qu'vaD wa' DevwI' tu'lu'
For one mission, there is one leader.
wa' Dol nIvDaq matay'DI' maQap
We succeed together in a greater whole. TKW
ngongmeH wa' DujDaq nuHmey nISbe'bogh So'wI' jomlu'pu'
[A cloaking device which didn't disrupt weaponry was installed in one
experimental ship.] S33
Unfortunately, none of these numbers are being used as a tag or label (e.g.
{meb wa'} "guest number one"). Can anyone think of an example that might
settle this?
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons