tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Fri Nov 19 08:49:27 2004
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Re: how long is it?, etc.
Dar'Qang:
>>> In order to ask "how tall is it?" / "how long is it?" should I use
>>> {'ar 'ab} or should I use {nuq 'ab} ?
QeS lagh:
>>>I'm not sure whether you can use {'ar} without a modified noun to support
>>>it. If I were saying this myself, I'd rather expand on it: {'ar 'uj 'ab}
Okrand in TKD (p.70)
{'ar} "how many? how much?" follows the noun to which it refers.
It can never follow a noun with a plural suffix.
{Haw'pu' yaS 'ar} "How many officers fled?"
{nIn 'ar wIghaj} "How much fuel do we have?"
Thus {'uj 'ar...}
>>>"how many uj long is it?", {'ar qelI'qam 'ab He} "how many kellicams long
>>>is the road?".
{qelI'qam 'ar...}
>>>{'ar 'ab} just sounds like there's something missing. As for
>>>{nuq 'ab}... I don't know, I just don't know. {{:) It sounds a tad
>>>strange to me, but perhaps it's not ungrammatical - just unusual.
lay'tel SIvten:
>>The basic question would seem to be {nuq 'ab}, but since that is so general,
>>you could also add a phrase meaning 'how many uj (or some other appropriate
>>unit)?', e.g., {nuq 'ab, 'uj 'ar?} or simply say {'uj 'ar 'ab}. I'm not
>>happy
I don't think you can say {nuq 'ab} "what does it measure?" You may have
to use {ngu'} with a relative clause as we've seen in other questions of
this type:
'uj 'ar 'abbogh yIngu'!
Identify how many ujes it measures!
>>with the idea of using {'ar} alone as an object, but perhaps a unit of
>>measure
>>can be assumed. This seems to be what happens when numbers are used without
>>nouns, which, I think, exactly parallels this.
ngabwI':
>First off, I agree, in principle, with what you say. On PK (or was it CK?),
>MO tells us that while shopping, if you ask {'ar} "how much?" the answer
>will be the number of credits the item costs.
It's on CK:
How much?
'ar?
One credit. Buy or die! Pay now!
wa' DeQ. bIje'be'chugh vaj bIHegh. DaH yIDIl!
>So {'ar} apparently doesn't always need a noun, if context makes it clear.
This CK example is the only one I could find of the unit noun being
omitted. It makes sense that the omitted noun is {DeQ} or whatever other
unit of currency being used (e.g. slips, strips or bars of latinum). But
the omitted noun could also just be the general {Huch} "money":
Dochvetlh DIlmeH Huch 'ar DaneH
How much do you want for that? TKD
Note that the question is just the single word {'ar} "How much? (How
many?)" This could easily work for other types of units, not just money,
provided the context is clear and the unit is understood. E.g.
'op 'Iw HIq vIje' vIneH.
I want to buy some bloodwine.
'ar?
How much?
wa'maH tlho'ren.
10 liters.
In PK we learn that a sentence with an {'ar} phrase can be clipped:
nIn 'ar wIghaj? [proper]
nIn 'ar ghaj? [clipped]
How much fuel do we have (left)?
but the verb prefix is omitted, not the noun. There's no evidence that you
can drop the unit noun in a longer sentence.
>I, too, find {nuq 'ab} too vague, and I would avoid it.
>
>But, if this were me, I would go with {'uj 'ar 'ab Dochvam?} "How many
>{'uj}'s does this thing measure?"
This is the best approach. If it feels too long, you can safely omit the
subject noun:
'uj 'ar 'ab?
How may ujes does it measure?
Alternatively, break it up into two sentences using {'ar} as a one word
question:
'uj puS 'ab Dochvam.
This thing measures several ujes.
'ar? yIqar!
How many? Be precise!
since we know that Klingons are never approximate. <g>
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons