tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu May 27 09:02:07 2004
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Re: core semantic case roles: agent, patient, focus
On Wed, 26 May 2004, David Trimboli wrote:
> From: "...Paul" <[email protected]>
> > I'm thinking, the example of /Doq/ -- it doesn't make sense to say
> > /yIDoq/, but it does make sense to say /yIDoq'eghmoH/.
Wierd, I don't remember writing the above. :)
> I disagree. It *does* make sense to say things like {yIDoq}, but we are
> told by Okrand in KGT that Klingon doesn't work that way: it requires
> {yIDoq'eghmoH}. This is an arbitrary feature of the language, not one that
> is required for it to make sense.
Bleah, I need to re-read KGT. I don't remember that, but that's not
surprising.
> We're seeing a lot of "this doesn't make sense" and "this only makes sense
> if" declarations in this topic, but the fact is that most people can come up
> with a sense for just about any otherwise grammatical construction. Whether
> or not you can make sense of it is a poor indication of whether you can
> actually say something.
Naturally, if Okrand says it, it goes. The "makes sense" part only comes
in when we're trying to extrapolate from what we have (and I don't mean
'extrapolate' in terms of new grammar or new words, but in terms of "I
know I can put prefix X on verb Y, but what does that really mean?" kinds
of things).
qurgh said:
> Maybe, but that maybe because the English isn't as important to me as
> the Klingon. Part of me doesn't care what the English translation is,
> simply what the Klingon means to the person hearing it.
> I hope that over time, as I build up more vocab, I can write more and
> more without a single English word or concept in my mind. I have to
> break my mind of wanting (and needing) to use English. A tlhIngan Hol
> internal monologue would be wonderful, but I wonder if it's truely
> possible.
Until you get to that 'true internal Klingon monolog', the English must be
important to you; otherwise you're missing the whole point. How many
times does someone come through here, asking, "How do I say <blah> in
Klingon?" and the answer is usually "recast". When recasting, we force
people to really think about *what* they're trying to say. This is really
no different than translating from English to Klingon -- but when we DO
have a "word-for-word" translation for something, I think a lot of us
(myself included), fall into the trap of using the Klingon "straight up",
but then we neglect to recognize that what may be contextually implied by
the English may not be necessarily implied by the Klingon.
The point about /-'eghmoH/ being required in the particular circumstance
(even though its necessity doesn't "make sense"), I think drives the point
about really analyzing the English down to its core, to make sure that our
Klingon translations are not incorporating passive English grammar...
...Paul
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