tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Jun 21 16:08:01 2004

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Re: mIvDaq yIH

David Trimboli ([email protected]) [KLI Member] [Hol po'wI']

From: "QeS lagh" <[email protected]>

> ghItlhpu' lay'tel SIvten:
>
> >Since phrases like {mIvDaq yIH} ('cat in the hat') have been pretty
> >thoroughly discredited, how is the following phrase from BoP to be
> >interpreted?
> >37. {telDaq wovmoHwI'mey}
> >     Wing Lights   (BoP)
>
> Interesting. I wasn't aware of this bit of canon when I wrote up the "Cat
in
> the Hat" problem on the Wiki page.
>
> It seems, then, that {mIvDaq yIH} would be OK as just a descriptive noun
> phrase. However, {mIvDaq yIH} (and {telDaq wovmoHwI'mey}) cannot be part
of
> any sensible sentence and keep their unambiguous meaning:
>
> {mIvDaq yIH vIlegh} - "I see the tribble in the hat"
>
> could mean "I see the tribble while it is in the hat", or "I see the
tribble
> while I am in the hat", or "I see the tribble while we are both in the
hat".
>
> But thanks for bringing this bit of canon to our attention. I think I
might
> need to change the Wiki now to reflect this.


Or it's an exception, or an error.  Languages aren't always exacting in
their rules, but the rules represent the general case.  "When the noun-noun
construction is used, only the second noun can take syntactic suffixes (Type
5)" (TKD p. 31).  Don't take one example and cheerfully throw out a rule of
TKD.

Now I'll tell you the real story behind this phrase.  Ready?  Okrand forgot
the above-mentioned rule when he used this phrase.  I guarantee that's what
happened.  If someone had been looking over his shoulder to say "The first
noun of a noun-noun construction can't take a Type 5 suffix," he'd have said
"Oh yeah," and changed it to {tel wovmoHwI'mey}.  Okrand is a native English
speaker, and this affects a lot of his Klingon sentences.  (The "prefix
trick" is another example of his English grammar being backfitted into
Klingon.)

Remember:

    Many of the rules given in the grammatical sketch
    are those set down by Klingon grammarians.  It
    should be remembered that even though the rules
    say "always" and "never," when Klingon is actually
    spoken these rules are sometimes broken.  What
    the rules represent, in other words, is what Klingon
    grammarians agree on as the "best" Klingon.
    (TKD p.9)

A rule may be broken without disproving the rule in general.

SuStel
Stardate 4473.5

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