tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Sep 18 11:22:38 2003

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Re: lyrics

Steven Boozer ([email protected]) [KLI Member] 

KAI:
> > If I got you right, in this case "chan Berlin" would be our choice. But
> > I'm not sure how to integrate this in Tyler's sentence:
> >    *Berlin* 'ev tIngvo' chan *Berlin* maghoS.
> >    *Berlin* 'ev tIngvo' chan *Berlin*.
> > would be my guess then. What do you say?

Voragh:
> > So we have {BERLIN chan} "(area) east of Berlin" (e.g. a suburb or the
> > outskirts) vs. {chan BERLIN} "the east's Berlin, Berlin in the east,
> > eastern Berlin" (i.e. the one east of here [e.g. Moscow in Russia vs.
> > Moscow in Idaho).  However WRT to divided cities like Berlin, the best
> > option seems to be {BERLIN chan yoS} "Berlin's east, the eastern district
> > of Berlin".

Marc Ruehlaender:
>but because it's not clear whether it's (Berlin (chan yoS)) "Berlin's eastern
>district", as intended, or ((Berlin chan) yoS) "district east of Berlin",
>I'd separate that, e.g., into
>
>   {*Berlin*Daq maH 'ej 'ev tIng yoSvo' chan yoS maghoS}

KAI:
>Hi Marc,
>Thanks for your comment. I've seen Voragh's conclusion, but obviously didn't
>really get it. "chan Berlin" would be some other Berlin situated somewhere
>east from here, right? I follow your interpretation. Is your translation the
>complete thing (We go from West to East Berlin.)? I miss the "second Berlin"
>like in Tyler's proposal. And for interest: could you give a literal
>translation of your phrase?

I can do that, but first I'll need to make two small corrections to Marc's 
translation:

   *Berlin*Daq maHtaH 'ej 'ev tIng yoSvo' chan yoS wIghoS
   We're in Berlin and we proceed to the east district from the west district.

When using a pronoun-as-verb with a location, you need to add {-taH} to the 
pronoun.

Since {chan yoS} is the object of {ghoS}, it needs the objective prefix 
{wI-} "we [do something} to it".  (You can also say {chan yoSDaq maghoS} 
using the non-objective prefix {ma-} together with {-Daq}, but it looks 
like Marc wanted to avoid using two {-Daq}s in one sentence.)

Because there are only three cardinal directions in Klingon - {chan} "area 
eastward", {'ev} "area northwestward" and {tIng} "area southwestward" - you 
need to combine them to refer to other directions.
{'ev tIng} is thus the direction between "northwestward" and 
"southwestward", or "eastward".  Okrand explained how this works on 
startrek.klingon (21 Nov. 1999):

   To express directions between the three cardinal points, the nouns are
   compounded. Thus, halfway between "southwest" and "east" (that is, halfway
   between {tIng} "area southwestward" and {chan} "area eastward)" is {tIng
   chan} (literally "area-southwestward area-eastward" or "area-southwestward's
   area-eastward" or, for short, "southwest's east"). Similarly, halfway 
between
   "northwest" and "east" is {'ev chan}. Logically, these words could come in
   the other order (that is, {chan tIng} or {chan 'ev}), but, for whatever 
reason,
   {chan} always comes second. The area halfway between "northwest" and 
"southwest"
   is expressed as either {'ev tIng} or {tIng 'ev}, with neither version
   significantly more common than the other.



-- 
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons

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