tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Jun 25 20:49:29 2003
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Re: vIghro'wIj - batlh lut
From: "Klingon Warrior" <[email protected]>
> Thank you for taking a look at my story, SuStel. I appreciate any
comments and corrections you made for me.
> But I do disagree with a few of your comments. I think that the most
important element to the story was missed.
> I don't think you caught the exact "story-telling element" I was going
for.
After reading your reaction to my comments, I see now how some of your
"errors" were, in fact, intentional.
> I made the story to be a bit suspensful...that is why I did not give the
"jagh HoS" an identity until the end.
> When the reader finds out it is merely the rain, it adds a bit of humor.
I see now. I really didn't manage to put it together in my head quite like
that.
I applaud and encourage your story-writing! So much more interesting and
fun to read than another description of the weather . . . !
> Also, I'm trying to give a creative aspect to the story. I'm not really
trying to write an essay,
> but more of a good old-fashion Klingon story. That's why I don't always
go for conventional writing
> (as in the case of saying "ramvam - ramvam").
This sort of thing is good.
> A few of your corrections, I believe, may have misinterpreted what I was
going for (my fault :).
Not entirely. My own density contributed.
> David Trimboli <[email protected]> wrote:
> >From: Klingon Warrior
> >
> >vengwIjDaq vIghro'wIj rotlh law' Hoch vIghro'mey rotlh puS. ram naQ
> >chontayDaq ghaH
> >vIghro'wIj'e'.
> Is there any kind of /ram/ that isn't /naQ/? What you want here is /Hoch/:
> /ram Hoch/ "all of the night," "the whole night."
> And /ram Hoch/ isn't a time stamp, it's a duration. The usual way to do
> this is: /qaStaHvIS ram Hoch/ "during the whole night."
>
> <><>Agreed, but how do I know when something is a duration? I'd like to
know exactly when I'd use the
> phrase /qaStaHvIS/.
If you're telling me how long something took, you're describing a duration.
If you're simply telling me WHEN it happened, that's a time stamp.
I don't know if that's a completely valid definition or not, but it's what
comes to mind.
With /qaStaHvIS ram Hoch blah blah blah/, you're telling me how long blah
happens. You're not just telling me that it happens at night; that would
just be /ram/. You're telling me it takes ALL night, /ram Hoch/.
> Cats are typically not beings capable of using language. You have
> /vIghro'wIj/ right (instead of using the /-wI'/ suffix), but you used
/ghaH/
> where you should use /'oH/. (Later in the story your cat seems to speak,
> but I'm skeptical as to whether this is a valid reason to change suffixes
> and pronouns.)
>
> <><>Actaully, I was paying homage to my Warrior Cat :) Again, this is the
stray from the conventional writing
> (personification) I was talking about.
I can certainly accept this as poetic license.
> A /chontay/ is not a physical location, so don't use the locative suffix
> /-Daq/ on it. Rephrase this sentence, perhaps like this: /qaStaHvIS ram
> Hoch chontaymo' wam vIghro'wIj/.
>
> <><>By saying, "(qaStaHvIS ram Hoch) chontayDaq ghaH vIghro'wIj'e'", I was
really trying to say, "My cat is {on the
>ritual hunt} every night." Can I not do this with the suffix -Daq. My
translation of -Daq, in this case, is the word "on."
>Please explain...can -Daq only be used if it is an actual physical
location?
Right, /-Daq/ only refers to physical locations. You can't be AT a
/chontay/ unless /chontay/ references a physical place that the event
occurs. Okrand has commented on this at one point.
> >veng che' ghaH. mIl'oDmey che' ghaH. toQmey che' ghaH. qu' ghaH.
> >HoH, pung Hutlh, SuvwI' HoS ghaH, 'ej ghaH mevlaH pagh. ram ghaj
> >vIghro'wIj...
>
> That particular English idiom, "My cat owns the night," doesn't work in
> Klingon. Anyway, /ghaj/ is "have," not "own."
>
> <><>I wasn't trying to say, "My cat owns the night." I was trying to say
exactly what I said...My cat has the night. Other
>than it sounding a bit weird, is there a problem with it? I was adding
more nonconventional style to the story here.
What does it mean? "My cat has the night" is meaningless to me.
> >batlh chutmey yaj vIghro'wIj 'e' reH vISov, 'ach ghaytanHa' jagh
HoSghajvaD
> >mev ghaH 'e' vIQubpu'.
>
> Remember not to put a Type 7 suffix on the second verb of a Sentence As
> Object construction. The suffix migrates to the first verb. /ghaytanHa'
> jagh HoSghajvaD mevpu' 'oH 'e' vIQub./
>
> <><>Agreed. Simple rule that I forgot about. Is there any other suffixes
that must not be on the second verb in SAO
>construction?
Nope, just the Type 7.
> >ramvam -
>
> According to Okrand, the way to say "tonight" is /DaHjaj ram/. This makes
> sense: /ramvam/ "this night" could refer to any night in question. But you
> haven't brought up any particular night so far, and "tonight" isn't an
> obvious default in Klingon.
>
> <><>I did want to say "tonight," but changed it to "this night" for more
of that Klingon story-telling ingredient. That's why
>I said it twice..."This night - this night there is a strong enemy, my
Friends."
I'm not sure how this is more Klingon story-telling. "Tonight -- tonight
there is a strong enemy, my friends."
What you might want to do is first describe a particular night (not
necessary tonight) in whatever terms you want. Then you can refer to it as
/ramvam/.
> > vIghro'wIjvaD tlhoy HoS jaghvetlh.
> >QorwaghDaq Sup ghaH.
>
> 'Iv?
>
> <><>Ah, there's that suspense I was talking about :)
No, I meant your pronouns are getting confusing.
"John spent the evening with Jake, but he didn't like him."
Who didn't like whom?
Clarify you pronouns. Either make it clear that your cat is the only /ghaH/
in the story (which might possibly impinge on the secret nature of the
enemy), or repeat /vIghro'wIj/, or some other identifier, where /ghaH/ now
appears.
> >QaHwIjvaD jach ghaH.
>
> "My help" isn't really the beneficiary of the action /jach/. I'd probably
> word this as /vIQaHmeH jach/ "He/it screamed for me to help."
>
> <><>Just a gramatical question, but why use the verb prefix vI- on QaH? I
may not fully understand the whole use of
>-meH, so this is probably why I'm confused. "He screams for I help it"? I
know that's literal, but explain the syntax here
>please.
vIQaHmeH jach
In order that help him, he screams.
Add in pronouns to make it clearer:
ghaH vIQaHmeH, jach ghaH.
> > ghaH vonlu'! "Oh, HIQaH, HIQaH!" jach ghaH,
>
> jatlhlaH vIghro'lIj?
>
> <><>It's a story, SuStel :) So, of course he can!!
That time I was pretty clear on it!
> >"QobDaq jIH
>
> "I am in trouble" is another English idiom that doesn't work in Klingon.
> How about this? /Qob ghu'wIj/ "My situation is dangerous." If I were in
> trouble, though, I'd fall back on clipped Klingon, and shout, /Qob!/
> "Danger!"
>
> <><>This is the same question from above about the use of -Daq. Does this
have to be a physical location? My
>translation of -Daq, in this case, is the word "in." Doesn't work?
As above, /-Daq/ is only physical location.
> > qoDDaq qet vIghro'wIj, 'ej ghaH tu'lu'...
>
> Another not-correction: /'ej 'oH vItu'/.
>
> <><>Was my translation okay, though..."My cat ran inside, and there is
was..."?
The grammar was right, though I think your choice of phrasing was heavily
influenced by English thought.
> pov lut! majQa'! motlh muD Duj, leng joq neH Dellu'. jIHobbe' 'e' vInID.
> 'a Dajbej lutlIj!
>
> <><>bIHobtaH!?! :)
lutlIj'e' vIlaDtaHvIS jIHobbe'bejtaH.
lutmey pov DaqontaH 'e' yImevQo'!
SuStel
Stardate 3482.7