tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Dec 30 22:59:45 2003

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Re: "movie" (was Re: MOST terminology)

David Trimboli ([email protected]) [KLI Member] [Hol po'wI']

From: "Alan Anderson" <[email protected]>

> ja' SuStel:
> >My point is not about how we translate things.  It is about the meaning
of
> >/HaSta/.  You seem to think that a /HaSta/ can include movies.  I do not.
I
> >don't think it applies to ANY visual display, just the sort of visual
> >display that will show you what's going on in a certain area, for
instance.
>
> The word {HaSta} is defined for us "visual display".  What basis do you
> have for denying its applicability to certain visual displays?

I don't deny it.  I keep saying, very carefully, "I THINK."

You continue to focus on my opinion of the word, and have failed to explain
why we should assume that YOUR opinion should be treated as the correct one
(e.g., unquestioned for use in a software suite translation).

> You seem to
> want to use {HaSta} for only "live camera" images.  That is the only way
> we've heard it used on Star Trek, but then again the only time I can
> remember hearing {nuH} used on Star Trek is when Kahless called for his
> betleH, and we certainly accept that {nuH} can refer to any weapon, even
> metaphorically.

We know for a fact that /nuH/ can be used metaphorically, as in /Hoch nuH
qel/ "consider every weapon" (KGT p. 108).  We know for sure that /nuHmey/
may be hung from a warrior's clothes, and are considered part of his
/may'luch/ (KGT p. 57).  We know that Klingon ships have /nuH pat/ "weapons
grid" and /Hub pat/ "defensive systems." (Skybox SP3)  We know that the
K'vort-class vessel Pagh has "the best weapons," /tlhIngan nuH/ (Skybox S7).
We know that when a ship has its cloaking device activated, /QaplaHbe'
nuHmey/ "weapons cannot be discharged": cloaking devices /nIS/ "interfere"
with them. (Skybox S33)  We know that weapons can be hung on a wall in a
/nuH bey'/ "pride of weapons." (KCD)

I think we know a whole heck of a lot about the word /nuH/.

The examples of /nuH/ I've looked at make it very clear that the word can
refer to both hand-held weapons and a ship's armamemts.  We know that the
word can be used metaphorically and in figurative expressions.  We know that
a distinction can be made between /tlhIngan nuH/ and other kinds of /nuH/.

Add to this the fact that the definition of the word is very unambiguous in
English.  My dictionary says "weapon" means "any instrument for use in
attack or defense in combat, fighting, or war, as a sword, rifle, cannon,
etc.; anything serving as an instrument for making or repelling an attack."
(It also mentions body parts or organs used for attack.)  In the entire
warfare argot section of KGT, Okrand never says anything about special
meanings of the word /nuH/, though he does do this for lots and lots of
other words.

Could Klingon have special meanings or restrictions on the word /nuH/ that
we don't know about?  Sure.  But such special cases are darned unlikely
given what we've seen of the word so far, especially compared to the word
/HaSta/.  But if you can come up with evidence for these hypothetical
restrictions, I'm all ears.

So what do we know about /HaSta/?  Well, the Klingon captain in Star Trek:
The Motion Picture uses it to call for an image of what's in front of his
ship.  And . . . er, well, I don't think the word has ever been used again.
My English dictionary doesn't define "visual display" for me.  "Visual"
means "of or pertaining to sight," and "display" as a non-specialized noun
means a presentation of something in open view.  M-W.com also mentions it is
"an electronic device . . . that temporarily presents information in visual
form; also : the visual information."

If /HaSta/ means each and every thing that the English phrase "visual
display" means, then it must therefore also apply to a performance of mimes
on a street corner, a fireworks show, a large font for a newspaper headline,
and the view from your window.  I'm sorry, but my instincts tell me that
this simply isn't what Okrand meant by the definition "visual display," and
I dare someone to convince me otherwise.

And if you try to restrict the meaning of "visual display" to that part of
the definition that involves the electronic device or its information,
you're doing exactly what you think I'm doing: arbitrarily restricting the
definition of the word to suit your opinions.

>  You apparently don't have a problem with letting {wIy}
> refer to a map,

Don't have a problem?  I wouldn't say that.  I don't know for sure, and I'm
not going to pretend that I do.  My instincts tell me it could be used for
"map," given the right circumstances.  And no, my instincts aren't strong
enough to give you a precise definition of the right circumstances.  If the
map is on a computer screen, yes, it works.  If the map is on the wall of a
military briefing, probably.  If the map is an unrolled sea navigational
chart, I don't think so.  The medium and the use of the map are important.
Anyway, does it matter?  It's just my opinion.

> you seem willing to go along with metaphors,

We know for a fact that Klingon does metaphors.

> and you
> explicitly accept {HaSta} as showing what's going on in a certain area,

I thnk it's an indirect showing of the view of some area, the image created
by a device.  I THINK.  I also think you're trying to force me into an
all-or-nothing argument that I'm not making.

> so
> I'm honestly baffled by your refusal to let {HaSta} refer to images on a
> screen which portray something in the manner of a movie.  There doesn't
> seem to be an obvious boundary to how liberally you'll treat the words'
> meanings.

No, there isn't an obvious boundary.  If there were an obvious boundary, I'd
have stated it and been done.  I wouldn't have bothered giving you examples.
Languages do that kind of thing all the time, and you know it.  A human is a
being capable of using language, and thus gets the language-using suffixes.
What about Data?  What about the Enterprise computer?  What about the
infamous parrot?  Even Maltz himself has told us that Klingons sometimes
disagree about whether talking birds get the language-using suffixes.  If a
Klingon cannot provide an exact boundary for this rule, why should we poor
Terrans, learning the language in isolations from Klingons, be able to come
up with them every time?

For the record, I have a pretty clear idea of what my boundaries for /HaSta/
are, but I don't have a succinct way to define it.  Give me a situation, and
I'll say yea, nay, or ehhh . . . .

Or put it another way.  Can YOU define the difference between the image
produced by a security camera and the image shown in a film?  If you can
define that, I'll be able to use that to try to show you why I find /HaSta/
applicable to the former but not the latter.

> I think that a live-action movie (or TV show, or pre-recorded videotape)
is
> well within the meaning of the word {HaSta}.  I think an animated film
fits
> too, with just a tiny, but justifiable, stretch.

A stretch?  It fits, but only if it's stretched?  Sounds like your
boundaries are just as based on opinion as mine are!  How can you go and
complain about my boundaries not being obvious when yours sets animated
films apart from live-action films without any explanation other than that
it's a "tiny, but justifiable, stretch"?  What kind of stretch?  Where in
the definition "visual display" does it say anything about the image being
"live-action"?  Where did you get that component?

> However, instead of pursuing the matter until one or both of us leaves in
> disgust, I will take my opinion, leave you to yours, and cease the
> discussion.

Basically, I presume, because you don't want to answer the other questions
I've posed, like whether /HaSta/ can refer to statues, prides of weapons,
mime performances, computer graphics, and so on.  And that's okay, because
it proves the point I've been making all along: we don't know for sure, not
even close, and to deny this is pointless.

SuStel
Stardate 3997.8

P.S.: My opinion on translating a computer OS "window": just use the same
metaphor that English uses.  Call it a /Qorwagh/.  It's not a Klingon OS;
Klingons don't have any words for it, and it should be understood that this
is my opinion, not the end-all truth of translating (and I don't think that
it is).  While /HaSta/ would, IN MY OPINION, by a misuse of the word (and
could be put to better use in describing webcams and the like), any
perceived misuse of /Qorwagh/ would be based on an identical misuse of the
English word "window," and is irrelevant.

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