tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Tue Nov 19 19:44:04 2002

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RE: QeD De'wI' ngermey

At 11:23 16/11/2002 -0800, Paul wrote:
>On Sat, 16 Nov 2002, DloraH wrote:
> > As already stated, most of the terminology used in programming are 
> idiomatic
> > expressions.  Because of this we have no way of knowing the thought
> > processes of the first klingons to coin such phrases.  Even here on earth,
> > if different humans were involved with the groups that first coined such
> > phrases, we could have stuff that is completely different.  Instead of
> > "push", maybe they "jump".
> >
> > We can go along with almost any words/phrases, as long as we remember that
> > they are OUR words/phrases.
>
>Yeah, after sleeping on it, I realized it really is still a case of
>creating new idiomatic expressions, even if there are words that are
>perfectly suited for overloading the concepts like { mIw tetlh je } etc.
>
>Ultimately, I think the question is much larger at its core.  Okrand
>continues to release little bits on a semi-regular basis (Yay Marc!) but I
>guess I wonder if this limited evolution of the language isn't just a bit
>too constrained.  Not that I advocate making up bogus words or sentence
>structures -- I don't, that would be much too confusing.  But I seriously
>doubt Okrand is going to ever be able to give us a full dictionary of
>words to canonically use to describe comp sci theory...  So if we are to
>grow the language to support that kind of discussion, how do we go about
>it?

Most languages simply take the English words and use them as part of their 
own language.

*stack*Daq *value* Da*push* DaneHchugh vaj yIruch.

It's actually a fine way to practice Klingon grammar, for people who aren't 
great at vocabulary.

>So now if I want to discuss the intricacies of software design in Klingon,
>I'm limited to either constantly redescribing these concepts,
>appropriating some words for idiomatic purposes, but constnatly marking
>them as Englishisms, or by constantly quoting English phrases in my
>Klingon.  Since software engineering is what I do, it makes it a little
>frustrating; what's the point in crafting a large composition about
>software if 50% of the words aren't even in the language?

Have you ever read an article on software design written in 
Norwegian?  It's likely very similar.
Most aircraft terminology in English is French. fusilage, aileron, 
empennage ...
My Russian isn't great, but at one point I could read a chemistry article 
in my field in chemistry, simply because the terminolgy was all shared 
between the languages.  You probably couldn't read the article in English, 
but that's what specialized vocab is like.

I agree that Klingons who developed computing systems independently of 
Federation contact must have their own native vocabulary

>Question -- How did we get all the words relating to aircraft terminology?

That would be me. :)  I was indoctrinated into the order of the friends of 
Maltz (presumably for my hard work as Beginners' Grammarian, and my 
tendency to churn out a Beginner's Corner roughly every quarter for 
HolQeD), and asked for a word that allows me to describe the orientation of 
an aircraft (or spacecraft) relative to some kind of exterior plane of 
reference.  I'm a pilot, and this concept is the first one you teach a 
person learning to fly.  Maltz was somewhat talkative and revealed a number 
of aircraft movement words.

>They appear to have come from Okrand all at once, did someone petition him
>to canonize most of the important concepts?  Is there an acceptable method
>for evolving the language to cover concepts Okrand is not likely to ever
>spontaneously canonize?
>
>...Paul
>
>PS>  Any non-English software engineers out there?  How do French
>engineers refer to the idea of a "stack"?  How do Russian engineers refer
>to a "queue"?  I'd be interested to know if those languages use the
>English ad hoc, or if they just translated the English word into a similar
>word in their own language...

Do a web search for a foreign word and a computer word together, and I bet 
you'll find pages.

Also:
Speak in Klingon as though you're speaking to someone who doesn't know the 
technical terms.  Imagine that you're speaking to someone who is familiar 
with computer science concepts, but whose language uses different 
terms.  The person speaks English, but only normal words.

And consider talking about things other than software engineering.  When I 
first started, I used to open the dictionary and let the available 
vocabulary inspire my thought.

You'll get this late, as my outgoing mailserver is unavailable until Monday.

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