Re: Frasier

[Steven Boozer <sboozer@midway.uchicago.edu>]

peHruS wrote:

> > lenglIj lutebjaj lengwIjvaD bel rap, Sov'a' Danobqu'bogh.
> > "May your journey be filled with the same joy, wisdom, and
> >  purpose you have given mine."

"May the same pleasure [and] wisdom that you have given to my journey fill 
your journey."

>While {lengwIjvaD} would be in the header position for the sentence portion
>{lengwIjvaD bel rap, Sov'a' Danob}, this sentence shows that whole sentences
>can be used as the nominative of a larger sentence, w/o any {'e'}
>construction present.

Nominative is a case; you mean the subject.

It's just an extended version of the subject, the noun phrase {bel Sov'a' 
[je]} "pleasure and wisdom".  {lengwIjvaD bel rap, Sov'a' [je] 
Danobqu'bogh} "the same pleasure [and] the wisdom which you have given to 
my journey" is merely a long relative clause.

Extending the subject step by step is sometimes helpful for beginners:

   lenglIj lutebjaj
   May they fill your journey

   lenglIj lutebjaj <bel, Sov'a' [je]>
   May <pleasure [and] wisdom> fill your journey

   lenglIj lutebjaj <bel rap, Sov'a' [je]>
   May <the same pleasure, [and] wisdom> fill your journey

   lenglIj lutebjaj <bel rap, Sov'a' [je] Danobqu'bogh>
   May <the same pleasure, [and] wisdom which you have given> fill your journey

   lenglIj lutebjaj <lengwIjvaD bel rap, Sov'a' [je] Danobqu'bogh>
   May <the same pleasure, [and] wisdom which you have given to my journey> 
fill your journey

The object pronoun {'e'} is irrelevant here because one clause is not the 
object of the other, but rather the subject.

NOUN + {-vaD} almost invariably appears at the very beginning of the entire 
sentence.  The only (slight) variations I could find are:

   vaj malopmeH tlhIHvaD nob SaSuqpu'
   So to celebrate, I've gotten you all a gift. (Hallmark)

   wa' Qu'vaD wa' DevwI' tu'lu'
   For one mission, there is one leader. (TKW)

I admit we've never seen a phrase containing a NOUN + {-vaD} used in this 
way, but there was really no other place Okrand could have put it, given 
what the producers gave him to translate.

   ? lengwIjvaD lenglIj lutebjaj bel, Sov'a' [je]
     "May pleasure [and] wisdom fill your journey to/for my journey"

would have been too confusing.  I believe that we've seen people 
occasionally doing this on the mailing list - and being chastised for it! - 
but it's nice to see Okrand do it too.

Now, aside from the missing word {ngoQ} "goal, purpose", I might have 
expected to see {bel rap, Sov'a' rap je} for "the same joy and wisdom", 
i.e. "the same pleasure and the same wisdom".

Which brings up another question:  Is using {je} "and" optional (like 
plural suffixes)?



-- 
Voragh                            "All the meaning is in the context."
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons           (Ilya Kabakov, Russian artist)