tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Mon Jun 10 21:41:10 2002
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Headers. Yet again.
> Since all of the type 5 noun suffixes except -'e' must come before the
> sentence, not just locatives must come before the basic sentence, the
> contrived appellation "header" may be just accurate enough.
This is the basic misunderstanding that persists for some odd reason. THE
KLINGON DICTIONARY does not say that nouns with Type 5 suffixes come at the
beginning of a sentence. It says (p. 60):
"Any noun in the sentence indicating something other than subject or object
comes first, before the object noun. Such nouns usually end in a Type 5
noun suffix . . . ."
Use basic logic. If most people like chocolate and I am a person, it does
not follow that I must like chocolate. If we are using the rules presented
by TKD, then when something has a Type 5 noun suffix on it, there is no rule
stating that it must come before the object noun. If that noun with the
Type 5 suffix is indicating something other than subject or object, THAT
invokes the quoted rule to put it in front of the OVS structure. Not all
nouns with Type 5 suffixes are something other than subject or object; your
assertion above is incorrect.
> But, let's not forget that adverbials may, and so often do, and usually
> come before these "headers." So, if we are going to use this coining,
> be sure to explain to students that even "type five noun suffix headers"
> not head the sentence.
Incorrect again. Adverbials do not automatically come before non-subject,
non-object nouns. Consider:
DaHjaj nom Soppu'
Today they ate quickly. (TKD 179)
/DaHjaj/ is a noun indicating something other than subject or object (it's
indicating a time). /nom/ is the adverbial "quickly." /DaHjaj/ comes
before /nom/. The first part of TKD 6.7 is all about how it's incorrect to
assume that the adverbial must come first:
"It was earlier thought that all adverbials (except /neH/ "only") come at
the beginning of the sentence. This is frequently the case, but what is
really going on is that the adverbial precedes the object-verb-noun [sic]
construction. It is possible for an element of another type to precede the
adverb." (TKD 179)
This passage then says that "most commonly, this is a time element," but
that's no absolute. It just means that you're most likely to see a time
element before an adverbial.
So, in fact, grouping non-subject-non-object nouns and adverbials together
into one category called "headers" DOES make perfect sense.
> BTW, while Klingon grammar is not English grammar, in English locatives
> part of the predicate (aka object). They are neither direct object nor
> indirect object; they are locatives.
Huh? In English, "locatives" are usually prepositions.
"I go to the Great Hall."
"I'll see you at your duty station."
"Are you hiding in the ship?"
English will use prepositions for tons of things.
"As for the weapon, I gave the knife to you in the morning at the base."
In Klingon, locatives are usually headers, though in the case of certain
"verbs of motion" they are objects:
vaS'a'Daq vIjaH./vaS'a' vIjaH.
Just as TKD says, you can put stuff that isn't subject or object into the
space before the OVS:
po waw'Daq nuH'e' SoHvaD taj vInob.