tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Thu Jan 31 15:55:50 2002
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Re: subjects in complex sentences
Voragh:
>> I would drop one of the {puqpu'} since it's a short sentence:
>>
>> ta' qIp 'e' ngIl puqvetlh!
ghunchu'wI':
} Voragh, you consistently suggest that the *first* noun be dropped.
} Do you really find it simpler that way? I'd much rather get the
} information early than to have to wait for the rest of the words
} before I can know what the first phrase is talking about.
Voragh:
>>And there are even longer examples in canon:
>>
>> Ha'DIbaHmey meQ Sop 'e' [lu]tIv tera'nganpu'.
>> Terrans enjoy eating burnt animals. CK
>> [... snip ...]
>> qagh, ro'qegh'Iwchab, targh tIq Sop 'e' lungIl Humanpu' puS.
>> Few humans dare to eat gagh, rokeg blood pie, or heart of targ. S21
Qov:
> You've convinced me. It's not taste, it's English bias. Your canon
> examples fully support your suggestion and make my former preference quite
> dubious. Please keep doing this. We need you to keep us from forming our
> own personal dialect of Klingon. Thank you.
ter'eS:
: Alas, it's not that simple, since there is also canon showing the
: other pattern:
:
: bogh tlhInganpu', SuvwI'pu' moj, Hegh
: "Klingons are born, live as warriors, then die." (p5)
:
: may'Daq jaHDI' SuvwI' juppu'Daj lonbe'
: "When a warrior goes to a battle, he does not abandon his friends" (p38)
:
: loQ 'oy'DI' SuvwI' bepbe'
: "A warrior does not complain about physical discomfort" (p46)
:
: quv Hutlh HoHbogh tlhIngan 'ach qabDaj 'angbe'bogh
: "The Klingon who kills without showing his face has no honor" (p59)
:
: batlh qelDI' tlhIngan, lumbe'
: "A Klingon does not postpone a matter of honor" (p67)
:
: There's even an example using the noun twice:
:
: qanchoHpa' qoH, Hegh qoH
: "Fools die young." (p117)
:
: These are all from TKW, which is all I have access to at the moment. There
: are more examples there, and I'll bet there are other examples elsewhere,
too.
Indeed there are. E.g.:
loghDaq Suvrupbogh SuvwI'pu' chaH Hoch SuvwI'pu''e'
In space, all warriors are cold warriors.
(i.e. "warriors who are ready to fight") TKW
Qu' buSHa'chugh SuvwI', batlhHa' vangchugh, qoj matlhHa'chugh,
pagh ghaH SuvwI''e'
If a warrior ignores duty, acts dishonorably, or is disloyal,
he is nothing. TKW
HeghDI' SuvwI' nargh SuvwI' qa'
When a warrior dies, his spirit escapes. TKW
Suvbe'chugh SuvwI' tlhuHbe' SuvwI'
If a warrior does not fight, he does not breathe. TKW
HeghDI' tlhIngan SuvwI' pagh tlhIngan SuvwI' HoHlu'DI' Heghtay lulop
latlh tlhInganpu'. Heghtay luloptaHvIS chaH chaq bey SeQ lujach.
When a Klingon warrior dies or is killed, other Klingons may perform
a ceremonial howl or yell as part of the Klingon death ritual. S31
But none of these counter-examples contain a SAO, which is what I thought we
were discussing: SAO's when the subject on both sides of {'e'} is identical.
In fact, I couldn't find any examples where Okrand introduces the noun first,
pronoun second (though he sometimes uses pronouns only on both sides), which is
why I thought the pattern worthy of mention.
ter'eS:
: So I guess it really is a matter of style. Maybe the
: "noun first, then pronoun" style is considered more
: literary by the Klingons.
Who knows? We need to see a lot more "literary" Klingon. The closest we have
to examples of formal or literary style are the brief texts on the SkyBox
cards. Some of the {vItlheghmey} in TKW and some ritualistic phrases quoted in
KGT also have a "literary" feel to them, but that's more subjective.
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons