tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Aug 21 08:06:23 2002

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Re: tlhIngan Hol lujatlhbogh puq'e'

lab Holtej 'utlh:

>>lab Holtej 'utlh:
>>>>A rose by any other name.  Personally, I see "subject," "object," and
>>>>"header" as the cases of Klingon nouns.
>>>I don't see these as cases, so much as grammatical roles.  Unless 
>>>you subscribe to the theory that (a) all nouns are marked for 
>>>case, even if it's not overt; and (b) Klingon is like human 
>>>languages in this regard, there's no evidence that Klingon uses 
>>i subscribe, i subscribe! :)
>To which part?  Both?  I'd object to (b) on the grounds that Klingon 
>is, by definition, non-human; we shouldn't adopt (theoretical) 
>principles of human languages for Klingon without evidence.  My 
>point was that distinctions like "subject" and "object" are 
>grammatical roles.  Their role in the sentence is determined by 
>syntax (word order), not morphology (case marking).  Furthermore, 
>(overt) case marking isn't even an option (though we can talk about 
>{-vaD} for indirect objects).

i see klingon as a human language. if we can learn it, and children 
can learn it, then it is a human language.

let me ask this: do i understand it right that "overt" case marking 
means there is a case, but we don't mark it?

i wanted to subscribe to
1) klingon is a human language
2) all nouns have a case, whether marked or not

>Let me ask it another way.  If you claim a non-overt case system for 
>Klingon nouns, what does this buy you?

i don't know the exact meaning of "non-overt".

maybe i just want to distinguish the case of a noun (i mean the way 
that a noun is introduced, as a location, as a reason, as a 
beneficary and so on) from the role that a noun has for a verb. a 
verb needs subject and object, and this together needs a header. 
there are no subject-object-header markers, as these rules are 
determined by the syntax of the language. a noun keeps his case 
independently from his role in the sentence or in the verb structure.
there is one sentence role: the header.
there are two verb rules: subject and object.
the nouns that are used in the header, in the subject and in the 
object slot have cases, they are locatives, beneficaries and so on. 
this difference exists.


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