tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sun Apr 14 23:59:00 2002
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Re: paqmey permey
From: "DloraH" <DloraH@kli.org>
> > > KGT: ??qIb lengwI'vaD tlhIngan Hol
> > Everyone falls into that trap. You just used a Type 5 noun suffix on
> > first noun of a noun-noun construction. TKD 3.4 makes that illegal.
> > correct way to say this is:
> > qIb lengwI' tlhIngan Hol
> > Galactic Traveler's Klingon Language
> In her example lengwI' is the first noun of a noun-noun?
Yes. /qIb lengwI'/ is the first "noun," and /tlhIngan Hol/ is the second
"noun." That they're each also noun-nouns is irrelevant.
For a simpler case, take this phrase:
"a weapon for the captain"
You CANNOT translate this as */HoDvaD nuH/. Nouns with Type 5 suffixes DO
NOT modify other nouns. TKD explicitly forbids this. You either have to
find another way to say it (e.g., /HoDvaD nuH vInobbogh/, "weapon which I
will give to the captain"), or you have to settle for /HoD nuH/ "captain's
weapon." Whether or not you settle for that depends very much on your
meaning. There are certainly contexts when "weapon for the captain" and
"captain's weapon are going to mean the same thing.
Now, /qIb lengwI'/ is the first part of a noun-noun construction, and
/tlhIngan Hol/ is the second part. You can't apply a Type 5 to any of those
nouns except the very last one, and we don't want to do that here. Put it
on any of the others, and you're violating the rule in TKD.
Note, also, that Captain Krankor consistently, happily, and intentionally
violates this rule whenever he uses the example of */mIvDaq yIH/ (which is
supposed to mean "tribble in the helmet," because we don't have the
vocabulary to say "cat in the hat"). This is just plain wrong. The correct
thing to do would be to either recast it (mIv tuQbogh yIH'e') or settle for
/mIv yIH/ "helmet tribble," which would be useful if there were a variety of
tribble that was associated in some way with helmets. Likewise, */maSDaq
loD/ is NOT the right way to say "man in the moon." Here, it's not so bad
to settle for /maS loD/ "moon man," though you can still choose to recast if
> qIb lengwI'vaD tlhIngan Hol
> "(Proper) Klingon FOR those who travel the galaxy"
There's no indication of "proper" in the English title, so we should drop
that. */qIb lengwI'vaD tlhIngan Hol/ is WRONG. It violates the rules.
> Your example, /qIb lengwI' tlhIngan Hol/ is a noun-noun, but this says
> the klingon is that of the traveler. If this person travels all over the
> galaxy he probably isn't fluent in klingon, therefore HIS klingon, the
> "Klingon OF the galactic traveler" would not be good, proper klingon.
Where are you getting the idea that it refers to good, proper Klingon? It
doesn't. The English title, with all of its connotations, refers to this
concept: "We're going to present that aspect of the Klingon language which
will be useful to the galactic traveler." I don't think that /qIb lengwI'
tlhIngan Hol/ "galactic traveler's Klingon" is at all inappropriate. That's
exactly what it is: the Klingon language used by a galactic traveler.
If you like, you could expand the explicit meaning of the title:
tlhIngan Hol'e' SovnISbogh qIb lengwI'.
> > > CK: ??jawlu'meH tlhIngan Hol
> > Another possibility:
> > tlhIngan Hol ja'chuqlu'meH
> I always thought /ja'chuq/ was /ja'/ and /-chuq/ and therefore would not
> take an object.
jagh DajeymeH nIteb yISuvrup!