tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Apr 10 14:00:01 2002

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Re: to' nech, 001: {Hal latlh yIyu', lI'mo' pagh lI'be'mo'}

>>>K: Hal latlh yIyu', lI'mo' pagh lI'be'mo'.
>>>Gloss: Interrogate another source; because this is useful, or not.

>> > Since <latlh> is a noun, not a verb, I believe it should come before 
>> <Hal>:
>> > <latlh Hal>
>>'ISqu' is correct; {latlh} "additional one, other one, another one" 
>>preceeds the noun it modifies.

>>[...]consider using the noun {vay'} "anybody, anything, somebody, 
>>something, someone":
>>   latlh vay' yIyu'!
>>   Interrogate someone/something else.
>Now that I think about it, I suppose I'm being redundant by referring to 
>the person interrogated as a "source [of information]" -- whoever one 
>interrogates, is a source of information, if you do it right.  Even if 
>they refuse to talk, that itself is a kind of information.  So I might as 
>well just say {latlh yIyu'!}.  That nicely ducks the question of 
>whether/how {Hal} is usable to mean "information source".

Even better; I should have thought about that myself.  Some examples from 

   latlh Datlhutlh'a'
   Will you drink another one? CK

   And the others?
   ["The rest?"] ST5

Note that {latlh} can take a plural suffix:

   Heghpu'bogh latlhpu' ghuHmoH bey. ghoS tlhIngan SuvwI' maq.
   This yell ... serves to warn the other dead that a Klingon warrior is 
coming. S31
   (N.B. {Heghpu'bogh latlhpu'} "the others who have died"}

Note the difference: {latlhpu'} "other people", {latlhmey} "other things" 
and (theoretically) {latlhDu'} "other body parts".

>I recall that in a genitive construction, a Noun Noun construction goes in 
>the order Possessor Possessed (like "John knife"), but I don't rightly 
>know the rules for other situations, like apposition ({yuQ tera'} or 
>{tera' yuQ}?), or even whatever situation is there in {latlh N}, if one 
>can even generalize from that to other structures.

We do have one undisputed case of apposition in Klingon:

   DuraS tuq tlhIngan yejquv patlh luDub 'e' reH lunIDtaH DuraS be'nI'pu'
    lurSa' be'etor je.
   The sisters of the House of Duras, Lursa and B'Etor, are constantly
    seeking a higher standing for the House of Duras within the Klingon
    High Council. S26

Apposition in Klingon is a matter of some dispute among Klingonists.  Some 
things that look like apposition - such as titles, ranks, and other 
identifying labels - may not be.  For example, "Captain Kruge" is not, 
strictly speaking, apposition in English.  I was taught years ago that the 
test of whether a noun is in apposition is whether each part can be used 
independently to form a complete, grammatically correct, sentence *as is* 
(i.e. without modification).  E.g.:

   1. Captain Kruge executed the prisoner.

   1a. Kruge executed the prisoner.
   1b. *Captain executed the prisoner.

Not apposition.  1b is not grammatical as is; you have to add something to it:

   1c. The captain executed the prisoner.
   1d. A captain executed the prisoner.
   1e. My captain executed the prisoner.

Another example:

   2. The Duras sisters, Lursa and B'Etor, collaborated with the Romulans.

   2a. The Duras sisters collaborated with the Romulans.
   2b. Lursa and B'Etor collaborated with the Romulans.

Apposition.  Both derived sentences are grammatical without needing to be 

The problem is that this distinction often fails in Klingon:

   3.  qama' muH Qugh HoD.
       "Captain Kruge executed the prisoner."

   3a. qama' muH Qugh.
       "Kruge executed the prisoner."
   3b. qama' muH HoD.
       "The captain executed the prisoner."

Both derived Klingon sentences are grammatical as is.  So the question 
is:  Are ranks, titles, etc. appositional in terms of Klingon grammar or 
not?  It certainly looks that way.

A second problem is that apposition and ranks, labels, etc., look like 
possession in Klingon.  {Qugh HoD} superficially looks like "Kruge's 
captain", which confuses many beginners.  The Planet Earth (label) and "the 
planet, Earth, ..." (apposition) would both be {tera' yuQ}, which does not 
mean "Earth's planet" - at least, not here.  OTOH, you can say {tera' maS}, 
meaning "Earth's moon".  You can see where this gets a bit tricky.  The 
careful use of punctuation helps make your meaning clear:

   mech 'el Qugh HoD.
   Capt. Kruge entered the bridge.

   mech 'el Qugh, HoD.
   Kruge, the captain, entered the bridge.

   mech 'el HoD, Qugh.
   The captain, Kruge, entered the bridge.
   The captain (i.e. Kruge) entered the bridge.


   Sol HovtayDaq 'oHtaH tera' yuQ.
   The Planet Earth is located in the Sol System.

   Sol HovtayDaq 'oHtaH tera', yuQ.
   Earth, a planet, is located in the Sol System.

   Sol HovtayDaq 'oHtaH tera' (yuQ).
   Earth (a planet) is located in the Sol System.

   Sol HovtayDaq 'oHtaH yuQ, tera'.
   The planet, Earth, is located in the Sol System.

   Sol HovtayDaq 'oHtaH yuQ (tera').
   The planet (Earth) is located in the Sol System.

Ca'Non Master of the Klingons

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