tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Oct 24 17:50:40 2001
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Re: KLBC qun
> Qor'etlh:
> >> "Warriors live in the present, civilization (Empire, or
> >> Citizens(?)) goes on into the future."
>
> Voragh:
> > Alternatively, use contrasting adverbials:
> > DaH yInlI' SuvwI'pu', reH taHtaH tayqeq.
> > As Klingon verbs have no grammatical tense, using adverbs of
> > time can help.
>
> : The english doesn't use tense either. The statement can be
> : said at any point in time.
>
> Well, you're right that this, like most proverbs, is a general "timeless"
> truth, but the English verbs are in the present tense. For example, the
> statement "Milk is good for you" is certainly true for all time, but the
verb
> "is" is in the present tense. Tenseless English verbs are known as
> infinitives: "not finite" (as to time).
>
> If you want to make some sort of timeless (aspectless?) proverbial truth,
> another way is to just use the bare verb without any aspect markers at
all.
> For example:
>
> bogh tlhInganpu', SuvwI'pu' moj, Hegh
> Klingons are born, live as warriors, then die. TKW
>
> SuvmeH 'ej charghmeH bogh tlhInganpu'
> Klingons are born to fight and to conquer. TKW
>
> Interestingly *not* {boghpu'}, {SuvlI'meH}, etc. perhaps because no
specific
> birth or conquest is mentioned.
Aspect is not tense, as we all know but often forget to put into practice.
The difference between, say, /bogh/ and /boghpu'/ is that the first talks
about an event, while the second talks about a completed event.
Including aspect doesn't suddenly add tense, nor does it imply specificity.
/boghpu' tlhInganpu', SuvwI'pu' mojpu', Heghpu'/ could be translated as
"Klingons have been born, have lived as warriors, and have died," and be no
less general than the original. And there is still absolutely no mention of
WHEN this stuff happens. All the change indicates is that the being born,
the becoming a warrior, and the dying are completed events. Not completed
now, not completed yesterday, not completed tomorrow, just completed.
And not /SuvlI'meH/ because their purpose is not to be in the process of
fighting toward a particular stopping point, it's just to fight. The
meaning of /-lI'/ is not part of this proverb, so it is not included. You
might interpret the proverb in such a way that you can show that /-lI'/
might make sense, but it's just not what the proverb actually says. Abraham
Lincoln said "Four score and seven years ago," and you might claim that he
really said "87 years ago," because that's what he meant, but he didn't.
> : Warriors have yInlI' in the past, they will yInlI' in the future.
> : in time. Warriors have yInlI' in the past, they will yInlI' in the
future.
> : There's not supposed to be tense, only aspect. Adding the adverbs isn't
> : wrong, I just think DaH is too restrictive.
>
> Qor'etlh wanted to contrast "in the present" with "goes on into the
future",
> and this is one way to focus on that contrast.
Because Klingon lacks tense does not mean that all verbs take place at all
times by default. It means that time is JUST NOT MENTIONED in the grammar.
Because English forces us to use tense, native English speakers have a
really tough time understanding that tenseless does not mean "present
tense," and it doesn't mean "all times."
> We may both be over-thinking this - not unknown on this list! - and should
> simply say:
>
> yIn SuvwI'pu'; taH wo'.
>
> Hegh SuvwI'pu'; taH wo'.
>
> Hegh SuvwI'; Heghbe' wo'.
I like ghunchu'wI''s suggestion (as best I can remember it):
ru' SuvwI'pu'; taH tayqeq.
SuStel
Stardate 1815.0