tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Wed Nov 07 13:21:23 2001
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RE: KLBC: Usage of -lI'
Rohan:
>> When using the type 9 suffix <<-vIS>>, would it be possible
>> to use <<-lI'>> instead of <<-taH>>, or is it always <<-taHvIS>>?
>> I know that in TKD <<-taH>> only is given, but <<-lI'>> seems
>> similar in usage, so I began to think... (big mistake :)
TPO:
: >TKD p43 does say "always" -taH. I do not know if Okrand has expanded
: >on this or not. AFAIK it is only -taH.
Okrand on {-vIS} in TKD (p.43):
"This suffix is always used along with the Type 7 suffix {-taH}
'continuous'."
Krankor once asked Okrand at qep'a' loSDIch whether {-be'} could be inserted
between {-taH} and {-vIS} for a suffix combination of {-taHbe'vIS}, meaning
something like "while discontinuously". Okrand replied, "That's an interesting
question."
SuStel:
: He has not talked about this or ever used /-lI'/ with /-vIS/. The only
: /-vIS/ exception is the proverb in THE KLINGON WAY, p. 95: /QamvIS Hegh
: qaq law' torvIS Hegh qaq puS/ "Better to die on our feet than live on our
: knees." We've recently discussed this one, and we all seem to agree that
: it's one weird proverb, however it's interpreted, and it shouldn't be taken
: too seriously as far as the grammar goes. Okrand himself notes that "the
: grammatical construction is aberrant: one would expect /QamtaHvIS/ ('while
: continuing to stand') and /tortaHvIS/ ('while continuing to kneel')."
This note comes from TKW (p.95):
"The grammatical construction is a bit aberrant; one would expect
{QamtaHvIS} and {tortaHvIS}. In proverbs, grammatical shortcuts
are not uncommon."
I have two theories WRT to this proverb:
1) The form without {-taH} heard in ST6 is a "frozen" survival from an earlier
stage of Klingon, when {-vIS} was used by itself like other verb suffixes.
2) The "grammatical shortcut" in this proverb is a form of clipping. I.e.
since in modern Klingon {-vIS} is *always* preceded by {-taH}, the latter may
be omitted to save time. If so, this would be the only example of a verb with
the {-vIS} suffix known in Clipped Klingon.
Of course the real life explanation is probably that the actor playing Kerla in
ST6 simply mis-spoke and no one caught it at the time. Once the movie was
released however, Okrand had to deal with it. Voila! - instead of making an
original observation, Kerla turned out to be just quoting an "aberrant"
proverb.
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons