tlhIngan-Hol Archive: Sat May 19 13:48:57 2001

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RE: the honour discussion



Okrand has stressed repeatedly that the best way to understand words in
Klingon is to observe usage. voragh has done his usual terrific job of
dredging up every canon fragment available for the use of {quv} and {batlh}
in all its forms. Meanwhile, as we have our "How many angels can dance on
the head of a pin" discussion over the finer points of meaning between the
noun {quv} and the noun {batlh} we seem to be ignoring the most
statistically obvious piece of information this canon summary provides to
us. By my count (and I've numbered things below so you can challenge the
count if you like), he uses {batlh} adverbially 21 times. I count all uses
of {batlhHa'} as adverbial use of {batlh} because it really is just that
with a suffix to expand its adverbial meaning.

We then see listed five uses of {batlh} as a noun.

Next, we see {quv} used as a verb 22 times. I count use of {quvHa'} or
{quvmoH} as uses of the verb {quv} because, well, they are. Just add
suffixes to expand the verbal meaning. I don't differentiate between use as
a stative verb vs. use as an adjective.

Lastly, we see the use of {quv} as a noun 12 times, including its use in
compound nouns.

Notice that if you combine all nominal uses of the two "honor" words, you
get 17 uses, which is remarkably less than either the number of adverbial
uses of {batlh} OR the verbal use of {quv}. Meanwhile, as noun-fixated
English speakers, we look for subtle differences in meaning between the two
nouns, which, it's pretty clear, are probably not used in proportion to
honor related verbs and adverbs as much as tera'ngan speakers are inclined
to use them.

Come to whatever conclusions you like about the finer points of meaning of
the nouns, but realize that when you are tempted to use a noun, most likely
you should consider using an adverbial or verb first, and if they cannot
express the meaning that you want, THEN consider using a noun and worry
yourself over which noun is better suited to your needs.

Honor as a noun is an abstract, and Klingons don't spend a lot of time
discussing abstracts. Being honored or acting honorably while DOING
something is far more often a part of the daily life of a Klingon. It is the
{butlh} that gives grit to the sterile world of ideas.

charghwI' 'utlh

 -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Boozer [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 1:54 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: the honour discussion
>
>
> DS9 "In Purgatory's Shadow":
>
>   GARAK: "It's the honorable thing to do."
>   WORF:  "You use that word, but you have no idea what it means."
>   GARAK: "Perhaps not, but you do."
>
> ro'Han wrote:
> : I'm not sure whether everyone else may have heard the honour discussion
> : before - I just thought it might be of interest because the
> concept is so
> : fundamentally Klingon. However, if you *could* supply the canon
> sources of
> : these words <<quv>> and <<batlh>>, I would greatly appreciate it.
>
> As I said yesterday, I feel the basic difference is that {quv} refers to
> personal honor or reputation, while {batlh} tends toward honor in
> general or
> the abstract.  I freely admit that there does appear to be some
> overlap: {batlh
> is sometimes used where I might expect {quv}.  Look at the canon
> (for all forms
> of these two words) for yourself and decide...
>
>
> {batlh}  honored, with honor, honorably, in an honorable fashion
> [HolQeD 4.4]
> (adv.)

1. batlh Daqawlu'taH
> You will be remembered with honor. TKD
>
2. batlh bIHeghbe'
> You will die without honor. TKD

I love the way that this also suggests that you will live honorably. "You
will honorably not die."

3. batlh Daqawlu'taH.
> You will be remembered with honor. ST3
>
4. batlh maHegh
> [We die honorably. (untr.)] CK

While this is untranslated on CK, it is translated on the card that comes
with another item:

The Klingon Bird-of-prey Lighted Musical Star Globe Halodome.

Imagine one of those snowman globes where you shake a glass globe full of
water and the snow slowly settles in an internal storm. Now, instead of a
snowman, put a Klingon Bird of Prey mounted on a clear, plastic column.
Surround the glob on all but one side by a black plastic cowling with a
starscape and another Bird of Prey painted on the inside. When you shake it,
green glitter floats around. The base has a golden trefoil on it above
greeked pIqaD. On the back is a sliding switch, a pushbutton and a series of
holes, forming a grid for an internal speaker. Turn on the switch and an
amber LED lights up the bottom of the Bird of Prey and a green LED pulses
there. Push the button and a digital sound chip plays that same exact voice
track as at the beginning of CK, but with different music and sound effects.
It came with a card with the lines translated. {Qu'vatlh! batlh maHegh} is
there translated as: "!@#$%! We will die with honor!" Okrand has confirmed
that the voice track is exactly the same as CK, though it is missing the
last two lines from that CK passage.

5. batlh malja' DaHuq.
> You transact business honorably. PK

6. Hoch DaSopbe'chugh batlh bIHeghbe'
> Eat everything or you will die without honor. PK

7. pIj maSuvpu' batlh maSuvpu' 'ej maQapbejta'
> In our many battles, we have fought with honor and achieved
> VICTORY! (Hallmark)

8. batlh bIHeghjaj
> May you die well. TKW

9. batlh ghob yIpab
> Adhere to virtue honorably. TKW

10. batlh Heghlu'chugh noDnISbe' vay'
> An honorable death requires no vengeance. TKW

11. batlh maHeghbej 'ej yo' qIjDaq vavpu'ma' DImuv. pa' reH maSuvtaHqu'
> Then we die with honor and join our fathers in the Black Fleet
> where we battle
> forever. (Anthem)

12. batlh muQaHpu'
> He/she has helped me in an honored way.
> He/she has helped me with honor. KGT

13. batlh choQaHpu'
> You have helped me in an honored way.
> You have helped me with honor. KGT

14. tlhIngan Dujmey law'qu' SommeyDaq batlh cha'lu'
> [It] has been emblazoned upon the hulls of countless Klingon
> starships. SP1
>
>
> {batlh}  honor (n.)

As has been pointed out, these next three seem to be adverbs, not nouns.

15. batlh tlhIngan Segh yIHub
> Defend the Klingon race with honor. (MO ST5 notes)

16. batlh qaghojmoHpu'
> It has been an honor to instruct you. CK

17. batlh qaghojmoH
> It has been an honor to instruct you. PK

{batlh} as a noun:

1. batlh potlh law' yIn potlh puS
> Honor is more important than life. TKW

2. batlh qelDI' tlhIngan, lumbe'
> A Klingon does not postpone a matter of honor. TKW


3. {batlh 'etlh}  Sword of Honor (Kahless' famous blade) (n.)

4. "The word {betleH} is actually an archaic form. In contemporary
> Klingon, 'sword
> of honor' would be {batlh 'etlh}, though this phrase is used
> almost exclusively
> as a translation or explanation of the older word, {betleH}." (KGT 59)

5. yIntaHvIS qeylIS'e' lIjlaHbe'bogh vay' batlh 'etlhvam chenmoHlu'pu'
> this sword of honor descends from the time of Kahless the
> Unforgettable. S8


18. {batlhHa'}  dishonorably (adv.) KGT
>
19. "The word for dishonorably is {batlhHa'}. This is clearly the
> adverbial {batlh}
> in an honored fashion plus a suffix {-Ha'}, which might be analyzed as the
> negative suffix that follows verbs or else as a suffix identical
> in form (and
> meaning?) to it, but which appears with adverbials. Whether this
> {-Ha'} can be
> added to all adverbials is not clear." (HQ 4.4)

20. batlhHa' vanglu'taHvIS quv chavbe'lu'
> One does not achieve honor while acting dishonorably. TKW

21. Qu' buSHa'chugh SuvwI', batlhHa' vangchugh, qoj matlhHa'chugh, pagh ghaH
> SuvwI''e'
> If a warrior ignores duty, acts dishonorably, or is disloyal, he
> is nothing.
> TKW


1. {quv}  be honored, be honorable TKW
>
2. "For a minority of Klingons who pronounce both b and m
> identically, as m, the
> words {betleH} and {meqleH} sound almost the same, especially
> when shouted in
> the heat of battle. Because of the importance of the bat'leth in Klingon
> tradition, however, they have taken to calling the bat'leth {betleH quv}
> (pronounced {metleH quv}), or 'honored bat'leth,' while the
> mek'leth is {meqleH
> matlh}, or 'loyal mek'leth,' Although {betleH quv} might be
> considered a bit
> redundant (honored sword of honor), it does the job of maintaining the
> distinction." (KGT 60)
>
3. naDev juHlIjDaq cha'logh jISopneSchugh vaj jIquv.
> It would be an honor to eat twice here at your house, your Honor. PK
>
4. bItuHlaHbe'chugh bIquvlaHbe'
> If you cannot be shamed, you cannot be honored. TKW
>
5. noH ghoblu'DI' yay quv law' Hoch quv puS
> In war there is nothing more honorable than victory. TKW

6. jIquv
> I am honored. KLS


> {quv}  honor (n.)

1. "Dueling--that is, challenging someone to a fight, usually to the
> death, over a
> matter of honor--is a longstanding Klingon practice. ... A duel
> is preceded by
> one party issuing a challenge to the other. This is expressed by using the
> phrase {qabDaj 'ang} (literally, "He/she shows his/her face,"
> referring to the
> Klingon tenet that a warrior always shows his or her face in
> battle). ... One
> accepts a challenge ({qab 'ang} [literally, "shows face"]) in
> order to prove
> one's honor ({quv tob} [literally, "test honor conclusively"]). Though any
> perceived attack on one's honor may prompt one to issue a
> challenge, in one
> traditional form of duel, the goal is specifically for a man to
> "win the favor
> of a women" ({vuv be' 'e' baj} [literally, "earn that a woman
> respect him"]) by
> competing with another man." (KGT 67ff)

2. quvwIj DatIchpu', tera'ngan.
> [You have insulted my honor, Terran.] PK

3. batlhHa' vanglu'taHvIS quv chavbe'lu'
> One does not achieve honor while acting dishonorably. TKW
>
4. tlhIngan quv DatIchDI' Seng yIghuH
> When you insult a Klingon's honor, prepare for trouble. TKW
>
5. quv Hutlh HoHbogh tlhIngan 'ach qabDaj 'angbe'bogh
> A Klingon who kills without showing his face has no honor. TKW

6. 'ang'eghQo' quv Hutlhbogh jagh neH ghobtaHvIS ghaH
> Only an enemy without honor refuses to show himself in battle. TKW

7. SuvwI' quvlIj yIqel!
> Consider your warrior's honor! (Day of Honor postcard)
>
>
8. {quv bey'}  honor display (n.) KCD
>
9. In the House of SepIch Rite of Ascension chamber, the {quv bey'}
> is like the
> {nuH bey'}, except that it has two bat'leths and two d'k tags on
> it, as opposed
> to the {nuH bey'}, which has one bat'leth, one {naQjej}, and a
> {ghob'eth}, "One
> of three weapons traditionally displayed on the {nuH bey'}." (KCD)


7. quvHa'  be dishonored (vi.) KGT

8. quvHa'; ghe'tor ngan rur
> dishonored as an inhabitant of Gre'thor KGT


9. quvHa'ghach  dishonor (n.) KGT

10. qaStaHvIS wej puq poHmey vav puqloDpu' puqloDpu'chaj je quvHa'moH vav
> quvHa'ghach
> The dishonor of the father dishonors his sons and their sons for three
> generations. TKW


11. quvHa'moH  dishonor (v.)

12. qaStaHvIS wej puq poHmey vav puqloDpu' puqloDpu'chaj je quvHa'moH vav
> quvHa'ghach The dishonor of the father dishonors his sons and
> their sons for
> three generations. TKW


13. quvmoH  to honor (v.)
> quv'eghmoH  to honor oneself (v.)

14. "Maltz reports having heard both {quv'eghmoH} 'he/she honors
him/herself',
> which follows the expected order (verb-Type 1-Type 4: {quv} 'be honored',
> {-'egh} 'oneself', {-moH} 'cause') as well as the weird
> {quvmoH'egh} 'he/she
> honors him/herself', in which the Type 1 suffix -'egh oneself
> follows the Type
> 4 suffix -moH cause, an impossible formation unless the speaker
> is considering
> the verb to be quvmoH honor and not quv be honored. Speakers who
> do this seem
> to be aware that they are breaking the rules, so they are doing it for
> rhetorical effect. (It has the same sort of feeling, perhaps, as
> if someone
> were to say in English 'Don't cellular phone me this afternoon'
> or 'I've been
> postnasal dripping all morning' or 'It's lightninging and
> thundering outside'
> or, to follow the Klingon example, 'He/she self-honors'.) If this
> sort of thing
> happens a lot, maybe, in time, the language will undergo some sort of
> reformation; maybe -moH will become a Rover. Or {quvmoH} and
> similar forms will
> become simple (though two-syllable) verbs." (st.klingon 11/97)

15. qep'a' wejDIchDaq jatlhtaH tlhIngan Hol HaDwI'pu'. ghoHtaH je.
> tIv'eghtaH je.
> vaj SuquvmoH. (st.klingon 11/96)

16. SoSwI' vavwI' je quvmoHjaj paqvam [KGT dedication]

17. Hochlogh no' yIquvmoH
> All times honor your ancestors (sic) KGT
>
18. reH no' yIquvmoH
> Always honor your ancestors. KGT
>
19. tlhIngan Hol Danummo' pIquvmoH
> Because you promote the Klingon language, we honor you. (KLI
> Friend of Maltz
> certificate)


20. {quvmoHghach}  "process of honoring" [IMO in HQ 3.3 on -ghach]


21. *{quvghach}  "honoredness" (marked term!) [IMO in HQ 3.3 on -ghach]


22. {quvqa'meH vIttlhegh"  replacement proverb

> "This is the only way to say replacement proverb currently, but
> in the past,
> the common term was the lenghthier {quvqa'meH vIttlhegh",
> literally, 'proverb
> for (the purpose of) being honored again.' The word {qa'meH}, clearly a
> shortened form of {quvqa'meH}, was originally used only in the
> construction of
> {qa'meH vIttlhegh}, but, though historically two verb suffixes,
> it has become
> accepted as a noun in its own right, meaning replacement in the sense of
> something that takes over for or is used instead of something
> that is gone or
> that has been lost. It is not used for a temporary substitute or
> a stand-in;
> the word for that is {lIw}." (HolQeD 5.1)

Compound noun use of {quv} as a noun:

10. {la'quv}  Supreme Commander


11. {ra'ghomquv}  High Command


12. {yejquv}  High Council





> --
> Voragh
> Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
>



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